Home > General > Should We Stay or Should We Go?

Should We Stay or Should We Go?

 

Right then, there’s less than a week to go and all to play for.

I have my postal vote. I’ll  complete it at the ballot box when I accompany Mrs M thereto – she prefers to do the cross thing on the day. I still don’t know which box I will cross.

I am, by inclination, a Remainer.

I was an enthusiastic ‘SUE’ (Student for a United Europe) in 1975.  Admittedly, it helped   that we got £50 from EEC funds to set up SUE at the Uni of Embra. We blew the lot on 3 kegs of beer and several 3 litre flasks of Chianti, all of which were consumed in one epic party. Of which I remember very little.

Moving on, my Dad volunteered in 1939 to fight for our country, despite being in a reserved occupation. He, and most of his generation, believed that it would not be a bad idea if we never had another European war. Dad, Heath and others were, in my opinion, honest in their hope that the EEC might make one impossible.

So, I was broadly  in favour of Europe. But that was then and this is now.

Now is a scary and dark place if you have a vote in this referendum.

To be continued.

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Categories: General
  1. June 18, 2016 at 3:24 am

    Hi John. Heady days, it seems, over there. My sense is that, bigger picture wise, it’s all about the elites v. teeming masses … and the elites appear very much to want all this globalized connectedness. What’s that all about, eh? Great clip. No one like the great schnozzola!

  2. Boadicea
    June 18, 2016 at 3:58 am

    Hi JM.

    I still feel that we were deceived in 1975 with the promise of No Political Union – Ever. As far as I recall, there was never any mention of the Union being designed to stop future wars – it was presented as a way of creating a mutually beneficial trading group. And I feel that the ‘Remain’ group are still trying to deceive people.

    As I have written elsewhere, I am sad that any Brit would want to give up the proud traditions of the nations that comprise Britain.

    England, with the first attempt to control unlimited power in 1215 with Magna Carta, and the beginnings of some form of democracy with the first Parliament of 1258, still a limited democracy – but such that by the end of the 1200s the Commons had control of the purse strings and could and, often did, curtail the more outrageous ambitions of the monarchy.

    The Scottish, so much smaller than England, yet they stood time and again against English attempts to conquer and subdue them until they forged their own nation, their own laws and their own culture – still alive today.

    Wales, defeated maybe. But nonetheless they have retained their uniqueness, their language and their pride. They may have been incorporated into Britain – but they have fought for the right to be treated as a distinct and separate part of Britain.

    Ireland – well some fought for their independence and others fought to remain part of Britain. All part and parcel of self-determination. Good for both sides.

    That anyone in Britain would be willing to give up their right to elect, appoint and dismiss those who make the laws that govern them is absolutely beyond my understanding. So much of the legislation coming out of Brussels seems, to me, to be petty and unnecessary – all designed to benefit large businesses and produce a society of homogenous and boring mediocrity. And it will only become worse as the faceless ones in Brussels impose more and more regulations on the hapless citizens of Europe.

    Why would any country that has tamed its own born-to-rule elite and established its own form of democracy, give absolute power to another unaccountable group?

    I’ve no doubt the ride after Brexit might be a bit bumpy – but I’d go with Cass School of Business’s report that the Treasury used faulty premises in its statement that Brexit will ruin Britain, and has predicted that Britain can and will prosper. I think it was this same organisation which said that, with the problems of the Euro, the pound will become the safe currency for Europe.

    I am hoping that the Peoples of Britain will vote to row their own boat – again – under a Parliament that they can elect and dismiss as they see fit.

  3. June 18, 2016 at 6:47 am

    AEA, where do you reside, pray, JM being ‘over there’?

  4. June 18, 2016 at 7:21 am

    JM, just seen the Spectator’s rallying call, reprinted today in the Mail, ‘Set Britain Free’. Yes!

  5. Boadicea
    June 18, 2016 at 8:04 am

    AED – I certainly see this as part of the centuries long protest of the ‘teeming masses’ who feel they have been disenfranchised against the elite who feel they have the right to rule, and in general, have ignored the wishes of those they rule.

  6. June 18, 2016 at 8:10 am

    JM, £50 was a lot of money in 1975 and although you blew the whole lot on booze the EU had bought a little influence amongst future leaders, at least I expect that is how they saw it.

    I don’t understand how any thinking person can vote to give away Britain’s sovereignty in order to join a virtually non democratic construct like the EU.

    I comfort myself that if we (Brexit) lose this referendum at least I and Mrs J will have done all we possibly could to win, and that the remain bunch will deserve every humiliation that the EU heap on them……something that I will enjoy pointing out, although I fervently hope that the opportunity does not arise.

    Re. The Jo Cox murder. It is disgraceful that the brutal murder of a young mother should be exploited to influence a referendum. As facts emerge it is looking as if the alleged cry of ” Britain First ! ” as the crime was committed never happened, and the fact that Jo Cox was an MP is coincidental. I hope that the political elites’ attempt to smear Brexit by association with this tragic event will backfire on them, as have all their other lies, and I find their emotional incontinence and virtue signalling completely sick making.

  7. Boadicea
    June 18, 2016 at 8:18 am

    Just read the article Janus. Good piece.

  8. Four-eyed English Genius
    June 18, 2016 at 11:23 am

    GO!!!. Next question. 🙂

    BTW, Love Europe, hate the EU. They are not the same at all.

  9. June 18, 2016 at 2:57 pm

    I’m in the same position, John, I still don’t know which way to vote. I don’t actually want to vote for either option, but vote I must!

  10. June 18, 2016 at 4:57 pm

    Janus: We are urban (Dallas) refugees now living (15 years) in the piney woods of southeast Oklahoma. Our numbers here are increasing.

  11. June 18, 2016 at 5:39 pm

    I visited Dallas in 1979 on biz. It was bristling with stetsons and very warm. I know nowt about Oklahoma, except the lyrics of the musical! I trust therefore that the cowboy and the farmer are friends now.

    You may have gathered that I’m an expatriot Brit, now domiciled in Denmark, my wife’s home.

  12. June 18, 2016 at 7:21 pm

    Araminta, It’s really simple. If you value your country’s sovereignty you vote leave. If you don’t…..don’t.

  13. June 18, 2016 at 8:33 pm

    We had a wonderful stay in Denmark a few years back, Janus. Happiest people on the planet, eh? Is Den-exit next?

  14. June 18, 2016 at 9:27 pm

    Jazz, I really wish it were so simple, but it isn’t.

  15. June 18, 2016 at 9:35 pm

    Araminta. It really is that simple.
    Explain why you think it isn’t.

  16. Boadicea
    June 18, 2016 at 11:34 pm

    Honestly, Araminta it really is quite simple.

    Would you give a total stranger control of your home, your finances and your future direction, knowing that you will never be able to get that control back, knowing that the stranger can strip your assets and use them for whatever purpose they see fit and knowing that they will throw open your home to whomsoever they want? I don’t think so.

    Being in control of one’s own destiny is a gem worth any price – especially if you have sufficient resources to make a go of it on your own, which Britain does.

    The Common Market was a good idea – but the British did not sign up to a marriage with Europe. The EU has become a very abusive partner. One does not stay in an abusive partnership – one gets out while one still has the resources to do so. Sure it may be a bit bumpy – but it will be a even worse if Britain stays in and is slowly stripped of her democracy, the right to determine who she trades with and control over who may or may not enter the country,

  17. June 19, 2016 at 6:00 am

    Well put Boadicea. One has watched with increasing dismay the manner in which what began as a club proceeded to morph first into an inward-looking institution, then an open prison, and now a mental asylum. See the words of the French economy minister Emmanuel Macron yesterday, a presidential hopeful no less, claiming that Brexit will produce what he terms the “Guernseyfication” of the UK.

    Madness. Sheer madness…

  18. June 19, 2016 at 6:23 am

    AEA, danexit? Could be, although it is difficult when a coalition is led by a minority party. The right wing here is gaining ground and emphasising the cost of uncontrolled immigration.

  19. Boadicea
    June 19, 2016 at 6:55 am

    Thanks Colin! Personally, I think Britain will become an insignificant island off the coast of Europe if she stays in. I’ve also watched with dismay as the EU Mafia have tied more and more restrictions on Britain. I’ve grown even more dismayed as every time there is a ‘crisis’ in the EU, Britain is expected to donate more because she has managed to prosper better than Eurozone countries who should never have been allowed into the Euro in the first place.

    Janus – I fear that if Europe’s individual Governments do not start standing up to the EU Mafia’s insistence on open boarders and begin to put their own countrymen first there will be a horrendous backlash from very extreme tight-wing parties everywhere. I only hope that there is still time for Britain, at least, to save herself. Ideally it would be nice to save the world – but practically it simply isn’t possible.

  20. June 19, 2016 at 6:57 am

    Arrers, it is easy in Dorset and the Cotswolds to ignore the egffects of wholesale immigration – which will continue if we stay.

    Coventry, my home town, is now seething with people from everywhere, it seems, except the old industrial Midlands. You’ll hear many languages in the centre, but no longer a ‘watcha, mate’.

  21. O Zangado
    June 19, 2016 at 8:25 am

    It is simply this. There are portentous warnings everywhere of a dangerous leap into the dark if we leave. Is that so? And what, pray, will the EU become if we stay? Some people do know, but they’re saying nothing. In 1975 the British electorate were sold down the river by the traitors Edward Heath and Harold Wilson and the rest of the Establishment. They lied and we believed them, voting for a Common Market, which actually still is a good idea, but which morphed into the hateful project of European Union.

    Cameron, Osborne and the rest of them are lying to us again today. Do not be deceived again

    My own problem is that having lived outside the UK for more than fifteen years I am denied a vote in the referendum and in any other UK domestic election despite holding a British passport and despite the British tax authorities still demanding I complete a tax return every year, which I ignore. What was that thing about ‘No taxation without representation’?

    Here in Portugal, I am stuck with an EU which is imposing daily an increasingly vindictive financial toll on the Portuguese people. Why we bother voting for politicians in Lisbon is beyond me. They are powerless and compliant in the face of the Brussels behemoth.

    OZ

  22. Boadicea
    June 19, 2016 at 9:04 am

    I have read a number of comments from citizens from the EU wishing Britain luck with Brexit and hoping that a British exit will encourage the people of their countries to make a stand against the EU. A couple have even commented that, once again, Britain stands up for Freedom! Encouraging but not much use if the British people prefer to be ‘safe’ (and sorry later!) rather than trust in themselves to tell those supporting the EU where to stick their attempt to wipe out democracy in Europe.

  23. June 19, 2016 at 9:56 am

    I don’t understand why the tragic murder of Jo Cox should have boosted Bremain’s chances. Are the ‘don’t knows’ who have suddenly joined the Stay camp so fickle? Any thoughts?

  24. June 19, 2016 at 10:15 am

    Expect to see attempts to portray Brexiteers and UKIP as closet neo-Nazis, or at any rate giving succour to the latter. In fact, it started in a small way yesterday wirth comments from Stephen Kinnock MP, saying how we should all do the decent and respectful thing out of respect for Jo Cox and her values by voting next Thursday for a continuation of the status quo. (Oh how the Kinnocks love the status quo). This was the from the son of the ex- EU Commissioner good-for-nothing (the one btw who sacked a fraud-spotting lady whistle blower) who some 15 years ago was saying how his parochially-minded fellow countrymen seemed scared of picking up the new euro coins for fear they might burn their fingers …

  25. June 19, 2016 at 10:20 am

    Janus:

    I take your point about the affects of wholesale immigration but should we vote to leave there are various views on what would follow. Brexit is just the beginning. We would have to negotiate terms on our future relationship with the EU.

    This is just one opinion and I’m sure you can find others:
    http://ukandeu.ac.uk/would-leaving-the-eu-reduce-immigration-to-the-uk/

    Boadicea and Jazz

    I dislike the way both campaigns have been conducted, obfuscation, randomly quoted statistics and dire warnings from each side. It’s very difficult or impossible to gain any accurate information and this is largely due to the unknowns. It is just a mixture of guess work and depends on what sort of arrangement is negotiated by whichever government is in power.

    I have absolutely no desire for further integration of the UK into the EU which is a likely consequence should we vote to stay. Any attempts reform this most undemocratic institution seem to be doomed to failure. Who knows where the EU or the Eurozone will be in ten years time though. It had staggered through various crises but hasn’t quite fallen apart yet.

    Regarding the possible effects on the economy again, guesswork, but Brexit will undoubtedly have some impact both in the short term and in the future.

    So yes, a leap into the unknown, hence my problem. Judging from the polls, and reading John’s post, I am not alone.

    I will probably vote for Brexit but it is still not an easy decision. My guess is that many will vote for Remain as the safest option. We shall see.

    I could say more but these are just a few of my thoughts written in rather a rush.

  26. June 19, 2016 at 12:43 pm

    Araminta: the EU has scraped through the past decade, but it’s been growing weaker and weaker and the vast majority of problems remain. Debt mutualisation is not something that can be easily realised. Germany cannot consent to it without changing its constitution, something not easily done in this case. As it would have major implications on the rights of parliament and sovereignty the constitutional court has already ruled that it would trigger a very rare plebiscite. There is almost no chance that it would be approved by German voters. To avoid this, the ECB has started printing money in earnest in order to prevent chaotic scenes at southern European debt sales. This has stoked inflation in Germany and the AfD have cannily caught on to this allowing them to move away from attacking Merkel’s migration policies and to attack the government’s complicity in increasing financial pressures. Germans take savings seriously and Germans are extremely conservative financially. Hence, the Finance Ministry and Bundesbank have had to renew their hostility to Draghi. Next week Spain will hold an election. Another hung parliament is likely. Ireland’s government is fragile and is likely to collapse within a year. Marine Le Pen will almost certainly win the first round of next year’s election and the Republicans will have to move to the right and embrace nationalism in order to secure a respectable result. The Netherlands are politically volatile. There is no “status quo” or “devil we know” at this point.

  27. Boadicea
    June 19, 2016 at 12:49 pm

    Janus. I suspect that Colin’s interpretation is probably correct. My comment on a newspaper article which extolled ‘Jo Cox’s work for her country’ was not published. I said that, while it was very sad that she had been killed by a mentally ill man, one should remember that she wasn’t Joan of Arc fighting against foreign oppression – she was, in fact, doing the reverse and that to suggest that her views were correct demeaned all those who thought otherwise and with much the same passion. Why am I not surprised it was censored!

    Araminta
    The Remainders claim that Britain would still have to have open borders with Europe, while Brexiters state that once Britain is out, Westminster will decide who comes in, and just as importantly, who goes out! Certainly the EU will try to impose open borders on the UK in exchange for trade agreements as I think they have done with other non-EU countries that want to trade with them. But, as far as I can see, Britain is, at the moment, in a commanding position as far as trade is concerned – in that the EU exports more to Britain than the other way round. He who holds the purse strings has more power than those who don’t.

    In my economic studies at the LSE, I was taught to follow the money – and which ever way I look – that’s the way the world has always run and still does. Ask yourself who is profiting out of the EU? And just who are the people pushing to remain? Big businesses benefit from high populations and, thus, lower wages. They are behind the regulations that stop small businesses thriving and expanding. The EU regs are not benefitting my son-in-law’s small business. And the open borders are not benefitting any in my family who struggle to get GP appointments, are told to get on with their medical problems and stand at the back of the queue. (Another story another time!)

    Whether Britain votes to Remain or to Exit there will be an impact on the economy.

    It is quite clear from the comments emanating from the EU that they are running scared. I don’t think they realised the can of worms this referendum has opened – and that, in their arrogance, they thought that a few crumbs would suffice to keep the peasants happy.

    If Britain remains – I’m sure that the EU will enforce its supremacy quite ruthlessly and to the detriment of Britain in such a way that she will never have the resources, as she does now, to leave.

    It will also try to do the same if Britain leaves – but in the end Big Business of Europe will know which side its bread is buttered and want trade deals. Follow the money – money has the loudest voice!

    I, too am not very happy about the way the campaign has been conducted. A little too much emotion, and on occasions, far too few facts. But, it is an emotional matter: democracy versus dictatorship.

    Nonetheless, I have read what a number of eminent politicians have said, Ian Duncan Smith and Michael Gove to name but a few. These are people who have actually worked in the areas of which they speak. Their arguments have been clear and, to me, convincing. They have not tried to hide the fact that it will be a bit rocky initially, I’ve also read the reports from recognised and independent organisations that say Britain will thrive outside the EU. I don’t think that anyone can believe that the Treasury and the civil service have been unbiased.

    In weighing up the arguments one must look at the motives of those on both sides.

    I look at the main Brexiter advocates – these are people who have had secure and safe positions in power and, yet, are prepared to relinquish all for what they believe to be in the best interests of Britain. Says it all for me.

    I look at Cameron, who declared that if he didn’t get a good deal from the EU he would lead a Leave campaign and asserted that Britain could thrive outside the EU. Now? Well I don’t have to tell you what he says now. How much was he paid – or what was he threatened with? I look at Theresa May who continually complained about the EU’s interference in the Judicial system – to give her credit she’s been pretty silent – but she hasn’t backed her words with actions. And there are others.

    I wish I had a vote, but like Oz I don’t. I hope that some of those who read here, but don’t comment, have the fortitude to read this! Just as I hope that Britain votes to leave.

  28. June 19, 2016 at 2:10 pm

    I too have ‘lost’ my vote, unfortunately. Boa is right, the EU snubbed Cameron’s attempts at renegotiation, with arrogance and cynicism about our importance/insignificance in the grand scheme. Now the EU is silent except to mutter to itself. Even if we stay many other members will be more vocal about change. This is not the end by any means.

  29. christinaosborne
    June 19, 2016 at 3:40 pm

    Another ‘lost’ vote here too.
    Considering how many British subjects have been carefully excluded ain’t it grand that any piece of flotsam and jetsam from anywhere seem to be able to get the vote illegally in the UK?
    That alone tells you all you need to know.
    WASPS are definitely second stringers to WOGS in the UK these days.
    Personally it staggers me that there are any remainers at all, must have a suicide wish for their progeny.

  30. June 19, 2016 at 5:25 pm

    Began as a dream ended as a nightmare. Merely another rich men’s club. Instead of courting Iceland, Norway and the Swiss it opted for failed states such as Albania, Bosnia and Serbia.

  31. christinaosborne
    June 19, 2016 at 5:38 pm

    The more I think about this wretched referendum the more angry I become.
    The timidity and utter balllessness of the remainers quite disgusts me.
    Had the people of Britain had the same attitude in 1914 and 1939 would they have invited the Kaiser and Hitler to take us over?
    How the krauts must be laughing behind our backs, lost the wars but about to win the peace!

    Can you imagine those being bombed sitting there and whining, we shouldn’t have started this its getting a little rocky!!
    Enough to make one puke.
    I shall immediately repair to my greenhouse to lower the blood pressure.

    The utterly ironical thing being, that had Hitler won do you seriously think he would have allowed this to happen? Not in a million years! Can you imagine festoons of mosques in Berlin under the ‘n’th Reich?

  32. June 19, 2016 at 5:49 pm

    “Islam is an ideal religion for a soldier” (Himmler) Both the “Handschar” and “Skanderbeg” SS Divisions were top heavy with Muslims. Hitler himself had no time for any faith, but played R.C and Lutherans off against each other. He saw Islam as a way of dealing with the aliyah to Israel.

  33. June 19, 2016 at 6:00 pm

    Boadicea: Good stuff!

  34. christinaosborne
    June 19, 2016 at 6:08 pm

    gog, maybe so, but they weren’t in Germany, basically the Balkan rump of the Ottoman empire and stayed there.

  35. June 19, 2016 at 8:09 pm

    Good and fair comment, Boadicea.

    Tina, I think the views here are fairly typical of our generation. I do wonder how the younger generation will vote, if they actually bother.

  36. June 19, 2016 at 8:12 pm

    It scarcely matters now whether there’s a small majority for In or Out. What matters is the pathetic sight of our elected leaders calling a referendum, supposedly to consult the country at large on an issue that was not made central to the GE just a year ago, and then desperately trying to swing the result when it became increasingly clear that things were not going according to plan.

    All that did was to make the ‘country’ realize that that the elected elite had all the time been in cahoots with the Brussels elite, that their attempt to gain a rubber stamp seal of approval on the back of a successful GE had spectacularly misfired. (Reminder: the successful GE was less about Cameron’s popularity, more about blocking an unholy alliance between Labour and the Scot Nats).

    Cameron and Osborne are dead meat, regardless of Thursday’s outcome. They have revealed their amazingly cynical misjudgement of the public mood, faced with the implosion of the EU and its superstate ambitions.

    I blame the schools myself, correction school. We need New Etonians, better still, State school hoi polloi.

  37. christinaosborne
    June 19, 2016 at 8:19 pm

    ara, I think most of them will vote to remain. After all they have never known the UK before the EU.
    Most of them are dreadfully cosseted and have been inculcated with left wing views in schools etc. They appear to have become a real little bunch of ‘snowflakes’ on the whole, quite unable to cope with any of the vicissitudes of real life with their ‘safe zones’ God help them when WWIII kicks off as it will in due course.
    Interesting how Darwinism plays itself out.

  38. June 19, 2016 at 8:25 pm

    Mintoushka, there will be less of a turn out for under 25’s. Dr Berry, Bozza is a product of Eton and he is a fool. Just read his biography. Chrissiebaby, the under 25’s are pro EU but too lazy to actually vote.

  39. sheona
    June 19, 2016 at 9:06 pm

    I do hope the under 25s don’t vote. There was a horrifying piece in today’s Sunday Times which demonstrated the ignorance of the young. “If we stay in, I can get a job in Europe” said one. And what did those of us who worked in France and Germany (in my case) before the UK joined the EEC do? We got a job in Europe, surprise, surprise! At present the unemployment level among young people in Greece and Spain and Portugal and Italy would probably ensure that there were no jobs available for anyone. As for Germany – chock-a-block with unemployed and unemployable immigrants – no more “Aufwiedersehen Pet” there.

    Like many others, I was all in favour of the Common Market, which as goggzilla says, started off as a dream and is now a complete nightmare. And the worrying thing for Remainers should be the panic that seems to be setting in among the europrat “elite”. If the EU is all that marvellous, why should the departure of one out of twentyeight countries be seen as such a threat?

  40. June 19, 2016 at 9:09 pm

    1. I am wondering, from afar, what the ‘man on the European street’ thinks of Brexit. Will ‘he’ be furious if the UK leaves the EU, or will it be a case of ‘comme ci comme ça?’
    2. Also wondering if Germany and France would just as soon be rid of Britain … if it were not for the money it pumps into the EU.
    3. The more I think about it, the EU seems doomed to failure in the not too distant future anyway. But what do I know?

  41. sheona
    June 19, 2016 at 10:22 pm

    I suspect that you are correct, aed, that there is a divide between what the politicians say and what ordinary citizens of the EU think. There seem to be definite rumblings in various member states showing dissatisfaction with the EU and even a hope that Brexit happens, showing the way for others to escape this morass. Germany would definitely be unhappy to lose British cash, since that would leave it as almost the only net contributor to the EU budget. France, having as always delusions of grandeur or even adequacy at the moment, would be glad to get rid of a thorn in its side but who would pay for its farmers then?

    I feel that first the eurozone and then the EU is heading for a collapse, especially now with the migrant problem and the failures of Schengen which have led to border controls being instituted once again. And as Merkel said, failure of Schengen and of the single currency spells the end of “the European dream”. France has always used the EU for its own ends, with no concern for the well-being of the whole.

  42. June 19, 2016 at 10:26 pm

    Sheona: What good does it do them to have the right to work on the continent if they can’t speak the language? In Germany they can’t function if they can’t speak German. All paperwork must be filled in in German and German will overwhelmingly be spoken at work. Not everyone, even younger, is proficient in English. Viking-type chum also advised me that even if a Danish company officially operates in English, Danish is the language of the break room and those who cannot speak it will automatically be excluded. As very few Britons speak a language other than English the overwhelming arrogance…

  43. Boadicea
    June 19, 2016 at 10:52 pm

    Not too sure about the ‘young’ vote. My grandchildren will be voting out – mind you that might have something to do with their parents and me and they are almost all 25+! A lot of youngsters will be wanting to set up homes and start families, and just might find that pressure on services will make them think twice about staying in.

    Certainly a number of younger commenters on the various newspaper sites that I’ve followed aren’t too enamoured of the EU. Their reasons seem to be of the practical nature, housing, NHS, and not wanting to join an EU army (I’m not sure where that one came from!) rather than regaining the sovereignty they don’t remember ever having and don’t even know they’ve lost.

    Odd isn’t it Christopher, that so many Brits complain that immigrants don’t speak English, but fail to see that they just might need to speak the language of the country that they want to work in!

  44. June 19, 2016 at 11:02 pm

    Boadicea: Many younger Britons will vote to leave. There are few groups that overwhelmingly favour the EU in the UK. Younger voters are likely to support “remain” in larger numbers, but it will probably be 55-60pc, not an overwhelming number like some are suggesting.

    Of course, some are simply insufferable. Many make no effort at all to communicate. I don’t particularly like Spain, but I make a point of speaking Spanish to everyone and will only switch to English if the other person insists on it.

  45. June 20, 2016 at 12:01 am

    The Marxists and socialists finally realised that they couldn’t succeed without big business and the banks. The Soviet economy had virtually collapsed but the Chinese communist party embraced capitalism. So what exists now is a toxic alliance of Marxism and big corporations (including the banks).New Labour was an example of this although it blew up because of Tony Blair’s lying and warmongering and Gordon Brown’s grandiosity (“no more boom and bust” ) and wrecking of the economy.

    The Tory party are on the corporist wing of this alliance hence Cameron’s desperate defence of our EU membership (he knows who his paymasters are). Corbin and the Labour Party represent the other wing. There is a small minority of principled politicians in either party but in parliament they are overwhelmed by the unprincipled majority who never fail to put party or self interest before country.

  46. June 20, 2016 at 12:12 am

    Hi, everybody.

    Thanks for every one of your comments. In truth, they have not helped my dilemma that much. I still do not know which box I am going to cross.

    But, I can’t think of a better forum in which to exercise my angst. Thank you for that too.

    If you are still prepared to help me out, please expect:-

    ! Economy

    2 Immigration

    3 Sovereignty.

    Only four sleeps left!

  47. June 20, 2016 at 5:47 am

    JM:
    1. The UK is a trading nation. It has a trade surplus with all other countries and trade blocs save the EU. The UK cannot make trade deals on its own.Threats to relocate some plants to the continent are empty as the biggest tariffs the EU could in theory impose are equivalent to a currency fluctuation and the investment needed is simply too vast. A hostile trade deal would hurt the EU more than it would hurt the UK.

    2. This one is trickier, but as Switzerland as shown it is possible to set limits without too much more than indignant protests from the EU.Germany has taken in many EU migrants as well, but unlike the UK Germany has many urban centres of similar size spread throughout the country. The UK’s population is heavily concentrated on the south east and mass migration from the continent is concentrated there as well. Eventually services will collapse under the strain. They’re no longer able to keep up as they are. The EU knows this but doesn’t care because the theory is more important than the practice.

    3. There is little point in having a country without it. What good is having a parliament when it can’t decide anything? What good is having courts when the court of final arbitration is beyond Britain’s shores and has been hostile to Britain from the start? Countries like Germany, France and Italy as well as the Nordic states are better able to withstand the EU’s stupidity because of their civil law legal systems. They can simply ignore things they don’t like because the EU can do little to enforce their policies and national courts and parliaments can argue that if EU diktats and national laws contradict each other, national laws are supreme. Common law works differently and this is what holds sway in the UK’s dealings with the EU.

  48. June 20, 2016 at 7:09 am

    Sovereignty is the most important issue because without it you cannot control the economy or immigration.
    Also, we hold this country in trust for future generations. To me the thought that we’d trade it away because we thought we’d be better off, based on some very dodgy economic predictions is just crazy. No honourable person would do that.

  49. O Zangado
    June 20, 2016 at 7:34 am

    JM

    1) It’s a big world out there. Why restrict business enterprise to ‘little Europe’ and why allow them to dictate with whom we can or cannot trade?

    2) It matters not. If we stay, immigration levels will be set in Brussels. More specifically, Mutti Merkel, having sorted out the wheat from the chaff of her own open borders policy, will keep the wheat in the Fatherland and dump the chaff outside Germany’s borders, namely the UK

    3) I refer m’learned colleague to my point 2) here and Christopher’s point 3) above.

    OZ

  50. O Zangado
    June 20, 2016 at 7:46 am

    Mr Berry – Stephen Kinnock, by proclaiming it is ‘respectful’ to Jo Cox to vote Remain has showed himself up as the shabby little opportunistic greaser that he is, in my humble wassname.

    OZ

  51. June 20, 2016 at 8:32 am

    Oz, Re Stephen Kinnock. I am in awe at your restraint in calling him a ‘shabby opportunistic greaser’.
    If we lose this referendum by a narrow margin. There will be a seismic upset in British Politcs. The Brexit crew who have conducted.by and large a decent campaign will not forget the fraud and deceit of the remainers and given that they are far more committed won’t take this lying down.

  52. Boadicea
    June 20, 2016 at 8:33 am

    Jazz is absolutely right:

    Logically – Britain must regain her sovereignty so that she and she alone, can make the right decisions for her and her people. No other country will put Britain’s interests first – so it seems logical to me that regaining sovereignty will mean that the economy and immigration will be dealt with in a way that benefits Britain and not an unelected group in Europe.

    Emotionally – Jazz is also right, Those who can vote do, indeed hold the country, its unique law system, traditions and culture in trust for future generations. They also, I believe, have an obligation to pass onto future generations what we were given freely after centuries of struggle: the right of self-determination.

  53. June 20, 2016 at 9:34 am

    Spineless young Kinnock, probably a victim of a domineering mother and largely absent father, is a weird type. Did his mum choose his wife for him? Did he even want a wife? His choice of distant jobs suggests not. So his latest pathetic stance shows he’s still toeing the family line after Windbag wept in public.

  54. June 20, 2016 at 10:23 am

    Working in Europe? One needs to speak the language (Poles take note) also the dream/nightmare was more of an allusion to human rights. How can anyone NOT vote leave?

  55. sheona
    June 20, 2016 at 7:35 pm

    Young Master Kinnock would be well advised to stay hidden. Every reference to the name reminds people that both his parents had their snouts well and truly in the EU trough for years, are now in receipt of a substantial EU pension and are prime examples of what we want to get rid of.

  56. June 21, 2016 at 7:37 am

    Like father like pillock, he managed tears yesterday himself – in the House. No dignity, as ever.

  57. June 21, 2016 at 8:34 am

    One just has to be thankful that Jack Straw’s son Will failed to win a seat at the last GE, given the manner he’s been trying to wring every last drop of political capital out of Jo Cox’s murder in support of his extra-parliamentary Remain campaign. Where would we be without those insider whistle-blowers?

    Incidentally, does anyone here take seriously the claim that Jo’s murder by a mentally unstable (and probably suggestible?) Nazi sympathizer was a ‘false flag’ operation? In short, he might conceivably have been recruited and ‘used’ in a deliberate attempt to smear the Brexit campaign, which if the case looks as if it was a successful ploy, given the ‘sympathy’ vote suggested by the 11th hour shift back to Remain in polling sentiment? I’m keeping an open mind, not usually having time for conspiracy theories. Even so, the attacker needs to be kept under close guard (thinking of Lee Oswald/Jack Ruby scenarios) and all his contacts via social media etc need to be carefully scrutinized for possible ‘false flagging’.

  58. Boadicea
    June 21, 2016 at 9:12 am

    Colin – it has been suggested elsewhere – I don’t like conspiracy theories either!

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