I have always said that I only post here or anywhere because I find it to be a relaxation. I seek to join in discussions which interest me and to which I believe that I can contribute. I read the rest and ignore it, passing by on the other side, particularly when it is what I perceive to be inflammatory, derogatory and pejorative or a self-satisfied and self-justified attempt to be as gratuitously offensive as is possible, with the usual defence that it is all just robust language. That is, of course, the right of the posters concerned. I would never dream of criticising them for having their fun.
Every so often, however, there does come a point. I live in this country and owe my loyalty to it. I am proud of it and of my nationality. I do not regard myself as one of a ‘nation of Quislings’ or as a coward or traitor. I am also, I believe, tolerant. Said tolerance is, in my opinion. born of my upbringing and the history of my nation and not because I am shiting masel’ (please excuse the Scots). Just for clarification, in case it is needed, the country involved is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the nationality is British.
I hope that I tend to make up my mind about anything on the basis of my own experience and on the available evidence. In that light, I do not see some of what I have read in the past few days as being anything close to rational debate.
Moving on and as Polonius advised, I am also, to my own self, true. So I can’t be ersed to go back through all the individual posts to bore you with my position thereanent. You’ve all read them and you all know what I’m talking about. It’s done wonders for the hit counter, by the way. 561 at 9.30 pm proper time and still climbing.
I should now tell you that I am at one with JW and cwj and sort of standing quite close to but not right beside Janus.
cwj gave what was, to me, an interesting account of his time in various Muslim countries with the suggestion that it was simplistic to claim that the Islamic world was a monolith where one size of perceived extremism and/or cleanliness fitted all. His experience, even if it’s not yours. My much more limited experience too. Uncomfortable in parts of Egypt, mainly relaxed in Turkey and relatively at home in Tunisia which seemed to me to be almost European in many ways.
JW told us about a Muslim boy who had assimilated into the Tartan Army. All he got back was stuff about Muslims never, ever assimilating. His experience, even it’s not yours. My experience too. Most of the younger Muslims that I meet have good Scots tongues in their heads and are familiar with the Broons (ask Ferret) and all the other Scottish shibboleths.
Not that we have many Muslims, to be fair and therein lies the rub. At the weekend, we had a visit from a 62 year old music teacher from Coventry. First time we had met her. On first sight, I would have put her down as a retired hippy and was expecting Grauniadism of the worst kind.
Wrong. She had taken a walk through Embra the day before and her only desire was to know why she had not seen any black faces. I had to explain that we did not really do them or brown faces to any great extent either. This was, apparently, not her own experience in her part of Coventry.
I think that I know where she was coming from. I flew to Luton three years ago to watch them play the mighty Robins, aka Cheltenham FC. Four of us Jock Robins walked to the ground from the railway station. A bit like the sub-Continent for the last couple of miles. Not a problem except that we could not find anywhere to buy alcohol which is a sad deprivation when you are of the Jockish persuasion. More and worse, I spotted a Conservative Club where I gained entry for a swift swally but the other three would not join me for fear of the fact that I would tell the tale when we got back to Caledonia (stern and wild). They were right. I would have done.
And so to Janus. In the past, he has said that he is a gadfly. I have always been happy to be one myself. But sometimes, and now I can only speak for myself, gadflies care too. I can not agree with very much of what he wrote in the comment that seems to have kicked off this whole farrago except and fundamentally:-
‘Generalisations about any ethnic or social group are irrational and childish’.
Totally, totally, works for me.
Moving on again, I do not believe that my country is lost, Large swathes of it are, admittedly, under severe pressure but I still think that, given time and good will, we can save it. Just can’t help it. I’ve had Polyannaitis for years now.
In sum, for me most of my country and most of the people in my country are getting on with the job of coping, just as they always have done and just as they always will do. All of my friends and the overwhelming majority of my family are a delight and things still have a reasonably good chance of getting better.
In my opinion.
Boadicea's Chariot 
I must admit John that I have spent a good half an hour trying to catch up with events here. I decided that I was too tired to comment, and I thought I might just spend some time tomorrow to formulate a suitable response.
I am pleased I saw this post and I heartily endorse your views.
I am happy to comment here on your post, and I really don’t think any further response from me is necessary.
Thank you.
I agree as well.
Spot on, John. Good post.
I don’t and you could insert a ‘More’ so as not to take up so much space. I thought that Boadicea had dealt with this in her post here:-
https://charioteers.org/2011/04/05/a-reminder/
Your first three comments tell a tale.
It would seem that either you or another has inserted a ‘More.’
Sound as usual. Well posted.
Hi, toc.
Fair enough. It is absolutely your right not to agree and I would not expect you to. When do you propose to bring the deep-fried Mars Bars into the argument?
Still, never mind, we’ll always have Rorke’s Drift.
For the avoidance of doubt, I belatedly remembered to ‘More’ the post myself.
JM
You could get a job on the Herald writing stuff like that.
Not really JM you killed that post as well.
Haw, jazz. you really do know how to hurt an Embran.
Mind, and in private, I do actually believe that the ‘Weegie Herald’ is a far better paper than our own dear Embran ‘Jockstrap’.
Fine that, toc. Not aware of doing so but sorry if that is your perception. No intention of deleting whatever you choose to throw at me because I do not believe in censorship of any sort but would be interested in taking what appears to be your grievance with me further without boring everybody else on the site. My e-mail address is embraforever@googlemail.com. I would be happy to discuss said grievance there.
You make an assumption that “you all know what I’m talking about”, JM. Don’t think that would be approved in court! It would be good if cherished colleagues could avoid the “you know what I mean” and tell us what they’re talking about in particular. We’ll soon be in the “nudge, nudge, wink, wink” regions otherwise.
Of course the Glasgow Herald is superior.
To what? The Beano?
If JM thought I was complimenting him he was wrong.
Night, Mr Mackie.
Still think this is an excellent and measured post.
Good evening, Sheona I refer you to the ‘Man on the Clapham Omnibus’ test as postulated in Hall v. Brooklands Auto-Racing Club (1933) 1 KB 205. I personally believe that most cherished authors will know exactly what I am posting about. Always a chance of being wrong, of course.
Hi again, jazz. In truth, I had very little expectation that you were complimenting me. But I still prefer ‘The Herald’ to ‘The Scotsman’.
It goes without saying that ‘The Beano’ is far superior to both.
Well, I’ll try to find the King’s Bench judgement, JM. It is more the actual expression I object to, conveying as it does to me at least a certain hauteur and disdain. Of course you’re not wrong. You’re a Scot. We’re never wrong! (They’re a’ oot o’ step but oor Jock)
My comment to Janus on his post, Dear Auntie Boa, was that he should take up his grievance with the author concerned. I should have pulled the post at that point, since I do not like spin-off posts that take arguments from one place to another. That way madness and MyT lie…
I will say the same to you John. This post, long as it is, rightly belongs as a comment on the post you object to.
However, since I let Janus’s post stand and wasn’t around when this went up – I’m not going to do anything about removing it.
I have written much on the various posts explaining my view, most of which has been ignored as was my post A Reminder.
Thank you, Tocino, for trying to draw people’s attention to it.
There have been screams of horror that the site is degenerating into MyT. One post? As I said elsewhere: “One swallow does not a summer make – and one anti-Muslim post does not make a MyT replica.” It’s raining – let’s rush out and build an ark.
However a continual stream of “I said this” and “I think that” posts might do. This is the last of the spin-off posts from the recent debate. Anyone who wants to take the discussion further can do so on the relevant posts.
Thank you, to the many people who supported my decision not to ban any subject – even those who clearly have a problem with some of the topics under discussion. And an especial thanks to Christina, for your vote of confidence elsewhere.
I make no bones about the fact that I dislike Islam, and I’m thoroughly fed up with being told that I must ‘respect’ it and its followers and must accept that their ‘culture’ has to be given equal value to Western customs, laws and mores in Westernised countries. I don’t and I won’t and I’m not going to keep silent about it either.
I, too, dislike generalisations and sweeping statements. I find it highly offensive for people to throw the generalised and sweeping comments that all who have the temerity to dislike that religion must be racists, or bigots – and that those who do not want to see the culture of their country changed beyond recognition must be xenophobic.
The charge of sweeping generalisations works both ways on both sides of the divide.
It would seem that those who use the weapons of words rather than rational discussion do not like it when they are called unpleasant names and start to demand reasoned arguments. People in Glass Houses comes to mind.
The Chariot is open for Debate – those who want, as JulieTee said, to ‘discuss only polite subjects, like nice old ladies at a tea party talking about the weather’ are welcome to ignore heavier topics.
But, I would remind those who join the latter discussions that if they really want to convince others of the validity of their thoughts then they should put up rational arguments rather than resorting to name calling.
I draw readers attention to my post A Reminder
and to With Respectful Acknowledgements to Hilaire Belloc
Good morning, Boadicea, with apologies for past unintended offences on the ‘Boa’ front.
At what point in this post do I ‘object’ to anything at all or to the right of anybody to say whatever they want? It is, I submit, my right to disagree with what they say and/or find it offensive and then to say that.
I have read ‘A Reminder’ and can see nothing in what you write which proscribes what I have said in this post. In particular, I believe that I have adhered completely to the sentiments expressed in paragraph 4 thereof. I have expressed my attitude to other people’s attitudes and opinions and am perfectly prepared to have my allegedly cherished notions challenged.
Just felt that my post was too long to be a comment on one particular post and that it covered points that arose on other recent posts. Sorry if you see it differently. Your site and your right, of course.
Not aware of any generalisations, sweeping or otherwise in what I wrote. As far as I am concerned, I just wrote about my own experiences and hopes. Sorry if you see that differently as well.
Have also read the Hilaire Belloc post and accept it in its entirety, particularly ‘Don’t carry arguments or animosities from post to post’ and ‘Sustained disparagement of any person, country or subject becomes boring.’ Both work for me.
Only up this late, by the way, because I’m trying to book hotels in Sydney and Cairns. As I suspected, we’re going to be in Oz when you are going to be in UK. Ships that pass in the night indeed.
John
I’m sure you are aware that I write as much for others as to the person concerned.
The ‘debate’ about what should be allowed on this “Chat Site” (Grrrrr!) has been rumbling for several days, the subject of banning topics like religion, panic (and manic!) fears about it degenerating into MyT and all sorts of other weird stuff has surfaced. Good for the hits (as you say!) but not so good for my sense of balance in trying to maintain some order without waving the rule book around too much.
Your post has the fortune (misfortune?) to be the latest (and thus the most likely to be read) on the subject and it seemed fortuitous to respond to a number of those queries here. Hopefully, my comment here will be read – most of my others seem to have been ignored.
I am unhappy about posts which carry on discussions that rightly belong elsewhere. It’s not always possible to draw the line definitively as to what does and what doesn’t – for me, this post seems to. Others may disagree.
I still haven’t booked my flight yet…
JM, you are possibly unique in being able to agree, at least in part, with two people from Coventry; for which I am truly thankful. Amen. 🙂
Can’t agree with you jm.
It is noticeable that most of the contributors here that have a sang-froid attitude to the ragheads don’t actually have to live with them! I don’t expect you have too many of them locally?
It is very easy to justify the stance when you only know personally a few of the civilised integrated variety, try getting down and dirty with them en masse.
For a charming example; the boy was often in hospital for weeks at a time, I got to know the staff rather well, I have been told that before admission to the wards they had to take Pakistanis to the bathroom unwillingly and scrub them down and send their verminous rags home sealed in plastic bags before they dared put them into bed. May you be so blessed next time you have a relative in a NHS ward! Their visitors can be just as grim.
Another; Somali burkhas green with age and filth emanating noxious fumes to such an extent that Mrs Singh, a hindu, used to walk the queue spraying them directly with air freshener, (bloody funny! Worth enduring the stench!)
You get my drift. I could cover pages with such stories as Brum is over run with muslims as are so many English cities. The fact that I could denies the accusations that they are generalisations. Too high a percentage of the encounters are lip wrinkling to say the least.
It is all very well when you have sufficient money not to have to live with them, why should our own working class have to suffer?
I am sufficiently xenophobic and well heeled to be able to live in the middle of 5 acres in white man’s territory. Should I forget and abandon others because I am comfortable?
Were I much younger I would rather cheerfully belong to the EDL and have voted for the BNP for years when not Plaid.
I would like to see a lot of them repatriated without violence to their countries of origin.
They are not British, they never will be British and are totally alien to my country. I don’t give a damn what their passport says. Carpet munching, wailing, droopy dirty rags and Sharia law are never and never will be British.
There is a growing groundswell of discontent in the white population, ignored by the chatterati and politicians, the whole thing is bound to end up in tears before bedtime. The ruling classes will only have themselves to blame. The only surprise is that the KKK has not yet raised its head in the UK!
(I’ve actually seen a cross burning in Memphis in 1976 complete with drive by shootings! One way to spend a Saturday night when the TV’s bad!) Strictly NOT a demonstration, just a Crackers night out! Needless to say, I stopped to watch. To be honest you have seen nothing yet in the UK, I hope you don’t, but in another way it might teach you all a damned good lesson. How far can you push people before they come out swinging?
For the record I have no problem with black people at all.
two? too! (line 2 too)
Fixed! 🙂
Bee happy, Bzzz, Bzzzz 🙂
Good morning John. Thank you for a thoughtful and well written post. I confess to being surprised that it has not received more widespread approbation. Having said that, I cannot agree wholeheartedly with everything you have written.
The statement ‘generalisations about any ethnic or social group are irrational and childish’ is of course a generalisation itself and is, I believe, fundamentally incorrect. Generalisations serve a very useful and logical purpose. They cut out a lot of irrelevant detail and go straight to the heart of the matter. Avoidance of generalisations and stereotypes ultimately leads to confusion and an idiotic use of some of the politically correct language we hear these days. “The suspect has a dark complexion, a broad nose, short curly hair and was listening to loud, hip-hop music”. Would it not be easier simply to say that, “the suspect appeared to be of African ethnicity”?
The fact is that birds of a feather do flock together, Jonathan Livingstone Seagull notwithstanding. Muslims tend to look, dress and behave much like other Muslims, just as the inhabitants Embra tend share behavioural characteristics with other Embrans that would be unlikely to find amongst the natives of Weegieland.
Generalisations become boring if, having been established as being valid, the speaker continues to emphasise them at the expense of some of the more pertinent detail. Take the statement, “the British have bad teeth compared to Americans” Once that proposition has been accepted the discussion can move on as to why they have bad and the Americans have good teeth. Is it down to dental hygiene, cosmetic surgery, diet, fluoride in the water, genetics or something else? There is no point in denying it, when the evidence is there. Of course there are some Brits with excellent teeth and some Yanks whose teeth are appalling, but the generalisation remains valid. (Actually, that may no longer be the case, but it was true 20 years ago.) But to define the British people purely by the state of their teeth is indeed irrational and childish.
I have just returned from a month in Zimbabwe. While there I came across a library of what is known as Rhodesiana; books written by the earliest white settlers in that country. One generalisation in particular was alluded to by virtually everybody, from missionaries, to soldiers, to politicians to farmers, and that was the difference in character between the Matabele and the Mashona tribes; this coming from people who until then probably tarred all Africans with the same brush. I won’t say what those characteristics are, but the generalisation appears to be as relevant today as it was then and anybody wishing to do business in that country, and this (seeing as how the Matabele originated from South Africa) would do well to take note. Indeed, if you study the history of those two tribes, you will see, I believe, why those generalisations hold true.
A final note to Boadicea: I completely understand John’s desire to write his own post rather than append his thoughts to the original. Those of us who have had the temerity to disagree with Bearsy in the past have seen our comments deleted, or worse, edited. At least this way he has the chance of ensuring some editorial integrity.
Sipu, as I would have predicted. stereotypes are your stock-in-trade! 🙂
Re. The Beano.
I was an Eagle person myself until I became more interested in text than pictures, then it was the Wizard. My Edinburgh grandparents continued to send me Broons and Oor Wullie annuals into my teens.
Whilst on the subject of D C Thomson, I would like to say that I am one the few people to have met the hon man.
Jazz, was he a hermit, then? 🙂
Janus, that wouldn’t be a generalisation would it? 😉
Helo JM
GoodGreat post.In fact I agree with almost everything you say, however, if I may, I’d like to temper my enthusiasm with a view of the big picture, from personal experiance.
I have voted in three referendums, (one of them was to release Mandela and unban the ANC) I was always progressive and would like to think that I still am, however my patience is being continually tried.
We drew lines in the sand back in ’93, so far so good.
I’m not quite sure why I’m relating this but I think it ’cause I see the opposites here, there has to be give and take but when one side appears to be doing all the taking tempers will flare.
I will forever thatnk FW for taking us forward.
Sipu, since you are (allegedly) neither ethnic nor social, my rule doesn’t apply! 🙂