Lies, damned lies, and statistics?

Muslim population ‘rising 10 times faster than rest of society’


David Coleman, Professor of Demography at Oxford University, said:

“The implications are very substantial. Some of the Muslim population, by no means all of them, are the least socially and economically integrated of any in the United Kingdom … and the one most associated with political dissatisfaction. You can’t assume that just because the numbers are increasing that all will increase, but it will be one of several reasonable suppositions that might arise.”

I found this in an article from The Times. Alarming headline, certainly and it seems to be endorsed by David Coleman. It has been widely quoted on the internet, as one might imagine.

Now I am admittedly not a mathematician but could anyone tell me please how the author of the article deduced this from the table here?

Having done some admittedly hurried research, I cannot find any source for the quote from David Coleman. His name is linked to research here, (takes ages to download, and is very very long)  but I can still cannot find anything to substantiate the claim  in the headline.

So yes, I feel, unless someone can persuade me otherwise, that “researching” such matters on the Internet is fraught with difficulties and I also feel The Times article is irresponsible and misleading.

76 thoughts on “Lies, damned lies, and statistics?”

  1. Evening Ara

    Here’s what I get after a brief look (all numbers in ‘000’s)

    UK Census2001

    Non Islam 57,198

    Islam 1,591

    Total 58,789

    DT leader page estimates 2010

    Non Islam 59,500

    Islam 2,869 (your table for 2008 shows 2,422)

    Total 62,369

    % increase

    Non Islam 4.02%

    Islam 80.32%

    Total 6.08%

    It would appear that the Islam population of the UK is about to double in size after perhaps 12/13 year period since 2001

    I would suggest that ’10 times faster’ could be an understatement.

  2. Hi Soutie.

    Thank you, but the UK Census is the only basis for comparison, and frankly, one can fill it in as one likes, and some people do indeed.

    The DT survey is, as you say, an estimate.

    It just shows how difficult it is to establish “facts”, and I think “10 times faster” is still misleading.

    What does doubling in size mean? Is this worse that 10 times faster?

    Sorry but I am pretty hopeless at maths, so I am seriously confused.

  3. I have a feeling that the DT estimate would be pretty close, of course we can’t have an exact figure because a census is only undertaken every 10 years or so.

    However, governments and industry do keep track of the numbers of the interceding years, statisticians would check, births, deaths, immigration, emigration, population movements within a country, town and city voters rolls and host of other information and then present information with a ‘error percentile’

    It’s vital for town planning, business decisions etc. that this information is available.

    Doubling in size means that for the status quo of ‘non Islam’ v ‘Islam’ to remain at 2001 levels the present population of the UK would have to be 106 million!

    I don’t think that its difficult at all and in my opinion the headline “Muslim population ‘rising 10 times faster than rest of society’” is fairly accurate if somewhat understated (again my opinion)

  4. Soutie.

    Yes, governments and local authorities do indeed need this information, but they have no way of doing this, other than random samples which have their problems.

    They could of course use computer models, which also have inherent problems; ie the ongoing AGW debate is a good example.

    My point is that collecting accurate information is difficult, basing projections as to population growth is not as exact science, given the inadequate data sets.

    All in all, I really have no idea if the headline is reasonable, alarmist or complete nonsense.

  5. Or indeed is this “rising ten times faster” business is going to remain constant, and for how long?
    Is this some sort of exponential growth theory?

    Have they really taken other factors into account in this? Just for example, the fact that I think at last there is an awareness that uncontrolled immigration is not hopefully going to continue at the same level; the birthrate of Muslims will no doubt decrease due to education, affluence and less generous handouts.

    There are many factors which are not taken into account.

  6. Soutie.

    The following questions are really not directed at you.

    Thank you for your contribution, I’m still not convinced though.

  7. Me again 😉

    I was withdrawing from the conversation after my last post anyway, you asked how info in the heading was deduced, I’ve more or less explained.

    You are now moving into analysing the data and looking forward.

    By the way, I read the heading in the present tense i.e. up to this period it has risen 10 times faster I don’t interpret the heading as insinuating that it will continue to rise at the suggested rate ad infinitum.

    Over and out 😉

  8. Hello Deborah.

    Yes, I think that is my problem with this, although I do have a problem with statistics as well, in some instances.

    Thank you!

  9. The correct way of putting it should have been that the RATE OF INCREASE of the ragheads is ten times faster than that of the poor long suffering whites. Not the cumulative quantity.
    The gross accumulation is in the order of 20%, prorata back to remove the cumulative, (like compound interest) and you arrive somewhere at an annual rate about 10%.
    I can’t be bothered to work it out for you accurately because you won’t believe it anyway, it does not suit your PC book does it?
    I’m sorry you should be so intellectually mathematically challenged, maybe you should take a course.

    Common sense should tell you they breed like flies, all have 4/5 children and we pay for them!
    In more ways than one. Just open your eyes on the street when you go shopping in Reading!
    Seeing is believing.

  10. Blimey, Christina.

    Do you have a case of severe dyspepsia or did you have a typically awful Christmas? I do understand the reasons why, and I sympathise.

    I am very open to ideas when presented in a reasonable fashion, which you do not seem capable or willing to do. Can’t be bothered, eh? Well, yes, I can understand that.

    Reading?

    Forget it, I rarely visit, but I can honestly say, I was there just before Christmas and not a “raghead” in sight. 😉

  11. Best not to confuse PC with good manners, Christina.

    It’s a mistake only the lumpen proletariat make, and I am sure you feel you do not qualify.

  12. You asked a question, Araminta, and received two numerate answers from Soutie and Christina, both of which put the lie to your assertion that “The Times article is irresponsible and misleading”.

    Because your politically correct mindset does not allow you to admit that the facts are as presented, you have used political sophistry to discard the answers and to reassert your unfounded accusation.

    Deleted by Boadicea

    You are, of course, entitled to ignore reality, but reality is unlikely to have the politeness to ignore you.

    Deleted by Boadicea

  13. No, Bearsy, you are as usual utterly wrong.

    I asked a genuine question and so far Soutie has attempted to answer the question, but I am not convinced.

    Your contribution and that of Christina is confused; assumptions abound, and both of you have resorted to accusations of sophistry or worse which completely fail to convince me.

    Try again, Bearsy and bring some sort of evidence or answers to the table here, or do not bother to comment further.

  14. Bearsy, and believe me, I am being patience personified here, I asked you to provide me with some answers or evidence, not personal abuse or what you imagine I mean by writing this post, or if you cannot, do not feel obliged to return to my post.

  15. Oh, Boadicea.

    I really am not offended by anything said on this post, or I would have deleted it myself.

    That is not to say that I feel obliged to answer each and every point. 🙂

  16. I’m sure you’re not, Araminta! I was!

    However… I’ll leave all such deletions to you in future if you wish!

  17. Neither disagreement with your political stance nor criticism of your writing style are what I would regard as ‘personal abuse’, Araminta. That’s a little over the top.

    Whereas your references to ‘severe dyspepsia’ and ‘lumpen proletariat’ contain more than a whiff of personal adversarialism, imho.

    But no matter. Boadicea has editorially emasculated my comment on your behalf, so I shall depart to watch Australia lose the fifth test, lest I further try your patience.

  18. Oh, Bearsy, what is a little over the top is a matter of judgement.

    You are not trying my patience; well just a little, but go sulk. 🙂

  19. The time for sulking will be when Michael Clarke is out for a duck. The Ashes are far more important than Islamic world conquest. 😎

  20. On topic.

    It really would not matter at all whether the followers of Islam were increasing ten-fold or more, if the blasted Governments did what they should be doing and stuffing religion back into the cup-board of personal choice – and enforced the FIFO principle.

    I fully support legislation that makes it illegal to discriminate on physical attributes: colour of skin, gender, age, etc. But I really have a problem with legislation that does not allow me to discriminate on grounds of life-style choices – and religion comes under that heading as far as I’m concerned.

    Those who make the personal choice of following a religion should take personal responsibility for what that entails. Have to wear a turban and can’t wear a crash helmet? Don’t ride anything that requires the wearing of the said item. Have to walk around hiding all those nasty bits of your body, like faces and arms? Then be prepared not to be allowed in banks, or on planes or anywhere else where it is necessary to be facially recognised and don’t seek employment in those jobs where you need to bare your arms. Want to bang your head on the ground five times a day – find a job that will allow you to do that… I’m sure that I do not have to continue!

    Then I’d put in place a few more ‘personal choice’ diktats. Refuse to learn English? Then be prepared to pay, at the going rate, for translation services. I’ll not waffle on here, either!

  21. Thanks, Boadicea.

    At first glance, I probably agree with much that you say, but I’m off to bed, and I will revisit this tomorrow.

  22. If I may make a contribution to this thread without having my head ripped off by anyone (not that I would notice the difference, I’ve been rather air-headed of late)…

    For a period of time after the disastrous ancien régime de Blair et Bruin the floodgates were opened for immigration from many poorer countries, especially Pakistan, to serve the future demographic voting needs of the Labour party. A large number of immigrants came after the year 2001 and it was only in 2007-2008 that the Labour government finally realised that there had been too much immigration. The statistics are sound, but not enough background was given to it. As far as I know there have been restrictions put on the number of unskilled immigrants allowed to migrate to Britain from outside of the EU, and it seems likely that before too long more restrictions will be put into placing slowing the rate of increase.

  23. I must be pretty thick, because it looks blindingly obvious to me that the proportion of Muslim children to Muslim adults is far higher than is the case for other religions. From your table, there are 56,000 Muslims over the age of 70 and 300,000 aged 4 years or under; a GROWTH factor of 536%. For Christians on the other hand, there are 6 million 70 or over and only 2 million 4 or under. That shows a DECLINE of 67% . Just look at the rate of increase in the number of Muslim children.

    Starting at 70+ and working down to 0, it goes:
    56, 33, 35, 61, 95, 111, 146, 204, 236, 257, 245, 152, 253, 236, 301
    (The figure of 152, must surely be a misprint)

    For Chrstians the figures are
    6001, 2346, 3025, 2876, 2894, 3240, 3324, 2814, 2238, 2308, 2398, 2085, 2937, 2100, 2069

    How is that not clear that Christians are declining and Muslims increasing? Like Soutie says, 10 times the rate is a massive understatement.

  24. Chris, isn’t the birthrate of (first generation) immigrants a prime cause of popn. increase?

  25. There is absolutely nothing that can be done about the numbers of people who have legally entered the country over the last few years. One can throw out all the ‘illegals’ and should throw out any who are clearly ‘criminal’. But Britain and Europe have to face the fact that they have allowed large numbers of people with an alien way of looking at the world to settle legally in their countries.

    The question is not how many of them there are, nor how much they are increasing, but what to do to change the way they interact, or rather do not interact, with the indigenous community. And the first thing is to disallow special rights for religion (see my #27) and stop segregation in the education system.

  26. Boadicea: I have a few ideas of my own. The first is to look at the example set by the Netherlands. Social welfare will not be extended to non-citizens and naturalised citizens but have worked for a number of years before being able to claim benefits. The second is to cut funding to diversity programmes and to abolish political correctness. This will go a long way in dealing with the problem. The problems are not consistent throughout the UK and Europe. In France, for example, the biggest problems arise not from the fact that the North Africans refuse to integrate — it is primarily because the French refuse to accept them. Germany and Austria have very narrow cultures with limited acceptance of outsiders. The UK has molly-coddled these groups and almost encouraged them not to integrate. On the continent positive steps are being made to accommodate if possible, but to not bend down. I think Merkel and Westerwelle were right in the tone they took — Islam is a fact of life and Muslims must be treated like everyone else, but they must accept the fact that Germany is Germany and German culture and values are the culture and values of the country.

  27. Christopher. Your ideas are just plain common sense. No one can come here and get benefits immediately.

    The biggest problem that I see is that Governments are not prepared to take a stand. When an Iman here said, publicly, that it was OK to beat one’s wife and that there was no such thing as rape in marriage – it was the PM who, equally publicly, stated that according to Australian law both were illegal and the Law of Australia was supreme. The minute anyone in the UK suggests withdrawing the ‘concessions’ they are shouted down as being ‘intolerant’, ‘fascist’, ‘racist’ or ‘bigotted’.

  28. Boadicea: perhaps that is why Australia has the world’s second highest quality of life and the UK’s is sinking like a rock. I do not think that the UK is necessarily doomed, but I do think that it will take a series of tragedies to snap enough people out of their complacency for there to be a strong movement away from the politically correct rubbish. Even in Germany, not a country known for tolerating much nonsense, it took a Kurdish woman getting burnt to death in a public square for dropping her abusive husband to begin stirring public concern on the issue.

  29. The country with the most to fear from the differential birth rate between Muslims and non-Muslim, is, of course, Israel. The statisticians calculate that there will come a point when Arab Israelis with the right to vote, outnumber Jewish Israelis. That point brings to mind the ancient “blessing” – May you live in interesting times!
    In 1970, the average births per family in Oman was around eleven. Over the course of forty years this rate of reproduction has been reduced to 2.87 per female, with improved education and healthcare.(Only a statistician could describe 0.87 of a child!) Poverty and poor health care, with almost non-existent family planning are prime triggers for excessive procreation. The Catholic church in Latin America and elsewhere is as guilty as any Mullah forbidding contraception for the levels of poverty and procreation in areas under their influence.

  30. As someone who has never much liked Islam, on account of its authoritarianism, illiberality and bone-headed certitude, this is nonetheless not something I have ever seriously worried about. Muslims constitute about 4 per cent of the British population, no more, and contrary to the concerns of those who dislike them, do not breed like flies, or even like Roman Catholics; they breed much as do slightly libidinous Protestants, Protestants with a certain zest for romance. By my reckoning, at the rate they breed, they would overtake the Christian population within about 800 years, by which time I suspect other apocalyptic stuff will have happened to render such a development irrelevant. And for every story about Muslim-only swimming nights — which are annoying and divisive and true, I’ll give them that — and Christmas being banned by some witless politically correct council leader who cannot count to five without worrying that he or she has inadvertently offended a minority group, there are plenty of stories of Muslims being targeted by the state for imagined offences, or vilified by the press on account of the clothes they choose to wear, or beaten up by some untermensch thug because they are a different colour.

    Interesting quote from The Spectator.  I don’t agree with every word but it makes some good points. It’s actually on the subject of halal slaughter.

  31. CWJ: it seems inevitable that there will be some form of an Arab state created out of the West Bank and Gaza. It also seems likely that Avigador Lieberman’s proposal, that is, to cede Arab-majority parts of Israel proper in exchange for Jewish-majority parts of the West Bank, will be a part of it. What I find most interesting is that Iran has actually done well in promoting family planning. The birth rates there have dropped tremendously over the past few decades. There is also progress being made in Bangladesh and many other parts of the Muslim world. Pakistan and Egypt, the two Muslim countries with some of the highest birth rates, are that way mostly because of social neglect.

  32. Christopher, the double whammy for Oman with universal education, for both male and female, since 1970, on the accession of Sultan Qaboos, and vastly improved healthcare (99% vaccination rates, for example) and promotion of “family spacing” having won over the Mullahs by emphasising the benefits to women’s health not breeding like rabbits, is that the baby boom which resulted from the improved infant mortality rates, has left a bunch of baby-boomers, who reached reproductive adulthood themselves from about five years or so ago. This has triggered a dramatic expansion in population, without them all having ten children. There is no easy fix, but certainly women’s education is key. Growing unemployment makes families realize that there is no sense in having ten kids if all of them are going to live nowadays beyond five…
    On Israel, who knows how it will pan out, but it is certainly giving the politicians in Israel something they need to focus on, before it bites them in the ass.
    Araminta: Thanks for the Spectator Link. I love his description of the AFDWU! On Halal, I am not convinced it is materially different from Kosher requirements, but as I am not one of the Chosen Few, I can’t provide expert opinion. Having turned to the Internet for guidance, (http://www.ehalal.org/kosher.html) I am left wondering what century we are living in – I think some of us may be adrift by some hundreds of years.

  33. Boadicea.

    Your comment #27.

    Yes, I still pretty much agree with what you have said. Regarding your first paragraph, yes, absolutely. Freedom to follow one’s own religion should be and is part of our ethos. If it interferes with the law of the land or employment prospects then tough!

    Another point which follows on from this, one could ask the question, why should one’s religious persuasion be relevant to those in government?

    I refuse to answer questions as to my ethnicity or religion on any form, and I suspect I am not alone. It shouldn’t be necessary.

    I can understand that ethnicity of immigrants may be relevant, as CWJ has pointed out, “ Poverty and poor health care, with almost non-existent family planning are prime triggers for excessive procreation. “. Indeed a fair percentage of immigrants do come from countries where these conditions exist, which is why, no doubt, they come here, and can you blame them?

    So, yes in terms of the provision of education and healthcare, this question may assist in giving extra resources to those areas where immigrants in large numbers overwhelm the existing provisions of these resources. It may well have been sensible to consider this before they invited them here!

  34. Hello Christopher.

    Your comment #31: I’m not about to rip your head off!
    You are quite right about the floodgates. The immigrants were allowed here and we should now deal with problem. Although one would question why the previous government did not seem to realise what a strain it would put in the areas in which most of the immigrants settled.

    You are quite right, the statistics are probably sound, but probably is about it. Given the total absence of information as to what size the sample poll was, or how it was conducted, it is impossible to tell.

  35. Araminta, please tell me if I have completely misunderstood what you are on about. Quite possible. But do not the figures, which I reproduced, very clearly show the dramatic rise in the Muslim population in relation to other religions?

  36. Hi Sipu.

    Your comment #32.

    No, you far from thick and you are the first and possibly the only one to analyse the data. Soutie made a start and yes, at first glance the rate of increase in the number of Muslim children is startling.

    This was the first thing I noticed. I then went further to question the data, and frankly that was difficult, as I explained in responses above.

    But what are the reasons for it, is the next question to ask, and just how alarming or alarmist is it? Is this a reason for supposing that this will continue?

    This is as Janus pointed out, first generation immigrants, who come from countries where survival rates for adults and children is much lower than the median for the West. Demographers generally agree that it takes a maximum of two generations for immigrant populations to benefit from a more affluence standard of living, healthcare and education for the birth rate to drop to that of the indigenous population.

  37. Sipu :

    Araminta, please tell me if I have completely misunderstood what you are on about. Quite possible. But do not the figures, which I reproduced, very clearly show the dramatic rise in the Muslim population in relation to other religions?

    Just replied to you, Sipu!

    Actually one of the things I forgot to mention was that the figure seems more startling because of the decrease in the birthrate of Christians.

  38. CWJ.

    Thank you for your usual measured contributions to this post; I cannot find much with which to disagree.

    I thought you might appreciate the article from the Spectator. 🙂

    I’ll follow your link when I have a moment.

  39. Ara, I think the reasons boil down to culture. They generally do. Islam is a primitive culture living with the benefits of first world technology. Having 10 kids when infant mortality rates are high and life expectancy is low is understandable. But when children not only are pretty certain to survive infancy but can expect to live into their nineties, it does not make a lot of sense. The Muslim community has not grasped that fact. Or if it has, this is a deliberate ploy to out-breed the rest of us.

  40. Yes, Sipu, it may well be culture but I think that you are quite correct in what you say about birthrates in primitive cultures, but according to demographers, and I tend to agree with them, the birthrate does go down once any immigrant population from the third world benefits from education and etc.

    Sipu, there is sufficient evidence to support the point that globally, Muslim birthrates are falling,I can provide you with a link to this, but give me a moment.

  41. OK, Bearsy.

    You win. I really have had enough!

    This may be your site, but actually it is Boadicea’s site, and this is my post.

  42. Minty MBE,

    Sorry to ee you have taken some stick over this, but it is a highly emotive topic. A lot of folk feel highly threatened by the tribal culture of muslims. I am among them. They’re an arrogant race who refuse to adapt to the culture of those they chose to settle with, as far as I am concerned they are the intollerant ones.

  43. Correct, Araminta, it is your post and it is Boadicea’s blogsite. And I agree that whilst you label disagreement as ‘personal abuse’, there can be no intelligent discussion. So sulk, if you like. 😎

    No, please stop editing my edits because you disagree with them. Edited by an increasing bemused author!

    Araminta – get out of my comment, please. If you want to make a comment, do so, but not inside one of mine.

  44. Hi Furry.

    Thank you.

    Yes, it is highly emotive but I don’t agree with you.

    But even so, they are here, and as the comments show, and I am not alone in this, we need to address the problem.

    Maybe the next generation will benefit from education, and etc. All immigrant populations are resented, and there are rather a lot of them, but they were invited here and who knows what the next generation will become?

    I doubt they will all be terrorists, but some may well be, but we must dictate the rules and thus far our “gubmint” has spectacularly failed to do this.

    Not altogether the fault of the immigrants.

  45. Minty MBE,

    If they want to murder their own in their own country that is fine by me. But if they want to live here, they should do so by our law and they should respect the British way of life. I would not expect you to redecorate your living room simply because I popped round for a cuppa and had the disgraceful bad manners to tell you I did not like your taste in wallpaper.

  46. Ferret :

    Minty MBE,

    If they want to murder their own in their own country that is fine by me. But if they want to live here, they should do so by our law and they should respect the British way of life. I would not expect you to redecorate your living room simply because I popped round for a cuppa and had the disgraceful bad manners to tell you I did not like your taste in wallpaper.

    Furry One.

    I agree. I do believe that I have said so in various responses in this post.

  47. I think Ferret has summed up the problem very neatly. It is an emotive subject and feelings do run high.

    There are many areas where the problem is not immediately apparent – and not just Henley. So it is not surprising that people from those areas can take a ‘cool, balance’ view of the problem.

    Try sitting with your grand-daughter filling in a housing application and reading on the form that Somalians will be given priority housing in an area that she was born in, and her mother has lived most of her life.

    It’s not just anger at the way the immigrants themselves behave, but the fact that the Government actively discriminates in their favour.

    For those living in areas that are inundated with an alien culture, it is not easy to take a ‘cool, balance’ view of the problem. And, frankly, I can’t blame them getting somewhat annoyed with people who do not have first hand experience of what it is like. I know I got pretty annoyed with people telling me that they didn’t understand why I had a problem living in Brixton in the 70s. It wasn’t their children whose education suffered, it wasn’t their children who got beaten up by black gangs whose existence the “Authorities’ refused to acknowledge, and it wasn’t their local Council that ‘fudged’ the figures to ‘prove’ that everything was really fine…

  48. Yes, Boadicea.

    I think I have never disagreed with this view on this site or any other. I do understand why this should be such an emotive subject.

    But, we invited them here, and this issue has been clouded and complicated by terrorists and extremists, and War on Terror, so called.

    I could go on but basically, I do not think that it helps to solve the problems we have here, by labelling all Muslims or their religion.

    In haste, as usual, but I am on the one hand pleased with the way this discussion has evolved from a very shaky start, but appalled by some of the contributions.

  49. But, we invited them here

    No “we” didn’t. The Government, despite all warnings, and despite adverse public opinion opened a flood-gate and let them in – and despite further warnings, and despite even great adverse public opinion continued to let them in. It, like Lambeth Council in the 70s, have fudged to figures show that the problem is not as bad as everyone living with the problem knows it is.

    Further more they thsn expected Joe Bloggs in Hackney, and other places, to pick up the bill and to change his way of life to accommodate the immigrants’ way of life.

    It’s a nonsense to say the people of Britain invited them in.

  50. Well, yes, Boadicea. I certainly didn’t.

    Sloppy on my part but our government invited them. I don’t think I had any say in the matter, but see my comments above.

  51. I’ve read this through very carefully.

    I have found no comments that constitute ‘personal abuse’, except perhaps the comment that Bearsy is ‘as usual utterly wrong’. I removed two sentences of his earlier that I thought sailed close to the mark in terms of politeness.

    I am not happy with a conversation taking place within comments that have already been posted, since this facility is only available to the Editors and the Author. There seems to be no reason to do this rather than post a separate comment.

    Delete a comment, or part thereof as you wish. There is no need to give a reason – but if a reason is posted expect someone to make an observation.

    I really can not see why anyone should be appalled at any of the contributions. In my opinion, people have been quite polite, especially considering the depth of feeling that this subject evokes. That someone disagrees with another person’s opinion, and expresses that opinion with some passion does not seem to me to be grounds for describing their comments as ‘personal abuse’.

  52. Boadicea.

    As I mentioned earlier, what constitutes personal abuse is somewhat subjective.
    I will address the rest of your last comment in the morning if I may.

  53. I don’t have a problem with that, Tocino, but would you kindly post something on the subject of my post in future

    Thank you.

    I have closed the comments on this post, Boadicea. I’m really not happy with some of the comments.
    I am going to bed, and I will will review this in the morning.

    I am more than happy to deal with issues relevant to the subject of my post but I am most unhappy with the latest contributions.

  54. My apologies, Boadicea.

    This post is now open. It was not intended to prevent you or anyone else contributing to this post, provided it is relevant to the topic under discussion.

  55. Araminta – In your #68 comment, you address Tocino, but there are no comments from him visible on this post. Presumably you have deleted them, so you might as well edit your comment to remove any reference to him.

    I notice that you have also deleted many of my comments, and all of Jazz’s, although you address us both in response.

    I note that you consider the definition of ‘personal abuse’ to be a subjective matter, and you appear to consider that relevance comes under the same heading. In that case, you will have, perforce, to acknowledge that others are entitled to use their subjective judgement on your manners and the appropriateness of your comments.

    You disappoint me, Araminta, you have let yourself down badly with this post.

    It will be fascinating to read your promised reply to Boadicea when (and if) you eventually deign to post it.

    You may, of course, decide to delete this comment, but bear in mind that it will be reposted under my banner should you do so.

  56. Araminta

    What I have to say is not entirely relevant to the topic under discussion, but more a response to your #67. I could either have answered you here, or I could have replied in a separate post. I chose to wait for you to re-open this post rather take the latter course of action.

    It may well be that personal abuse is now viewed as ‘subjective’ and that those who feel they have been abused can call ‘foul’ and expect the world to support their claim. I do not concur with that point of view – and I never will. That thinking has led to the imposition of Political Correctness which has stifled debate and silenced those who have an alternative opinion – as you have done by removing so many comments here.

    However, were I to believe that personal abuse is ‘subjective’ I would expect those who feel aggrieved by the way people express their views to moderate their own comments in line with the behaviour they expect and demand of others. I would not expect them to censor other people’s comments and then complain when their own, similar, remarks are censored.

    If anyone wants to set their own particular definition of ‘personal abuse’, I will endeavour to ensure that those standards apply to everybody on that person’s posts – including the poster. Fortunately, for me, I don’t think that too many here will avail themselves of that option but will be happy to abide by the “umpire’s rules” – mine.

    As I said, I read this post very carefully, before it was emasculated. All I read was people expressing their opinions – some more forcefully than others. A few, including yourself, made judgements about the value of discussing the topic with you, or, in your case, with others. As far as I’m concerned, those ‘judgements’ were probably ‘fair comment’ considering the amount of time we have all known each other.

    I have no alternative but to support the way you have used the rules of the site on this post, but I would be remiss were I not to remind those who do not like what you have done that they also have choices as to how or whether they comment on such posts in the future. It would hardly seem worth their while to make the effort to comment if they know that their opinions will be instantly removed. Nor will it will be worthwhile commenting for those of us who enjoy reading alternative opinions if every dissenting point of view is removed.

    Boadicea

  57. It continues to amaze me how a few pixels on a screen can get folk so excited. There are times when I involve myself in what some may term ‘weighty’ issues but more often than not I just jiggle along at my own pace trying to inject what I think passes for humour. Every now and then I dip my toe in the pool of fire and sometimes I get singed in the ensuing flame war but if someone takes a pop at me that’s fine, as long as I’m not misquoted. It would be so boring if we all sang from the same hymn book so perhaps I may take a bigger part in the ‘big’ issues.
    MrsOMG and I have reached a state of perfect harmony when it comes to ‘issues’.
    She deals with the small issues and I deal with the big ones.
    She will decide where we go on holiday, should she buy a new fur coat, do we get a new washing machine wheras I decide on the big issues, should Red China be in the UN, is the coalition a good idea, was Blair a good PM and all stuff like that, and MrsOMG is quite content with this arrangement.

  58. oldmovieguy :

    It continues to amaze me how a few pixels on a screen can get folk so excited. There are times when I involve myself in what some may term ‘weighty’ issues but more often than not I just jiggle along at my own pace trying to inject what I think passes for humour. Every now and then I dip my toe in the pool of fire and sometimes I get singed in the ensuing flame war but if someone takes a pop at me that’s fine, as long as I’m not misquoted. It would be so boring if we all sang from the same hymn book so perhaps I may take a bigger part in the ‘big’ issues.
    MrsOMG and I have reached a state of perfect harmony when it comes to ‘issues’.
    She deals with the small issues and I deal with the big ones.
    She will decide where we go on holiday, should she buy a new fur coat, do we get a new washing machine wheras I decide on the big issues, should Red China be in the UN, is the coalition a good idea, was Blair a good PM and all stuff like that, and MrsOMG is quite content with this arrangement.

    I think you have the purrfect arrangement there.

  59. OMG

    Mrs J and I have a similar arrangement. Araminta clearly doesn’t.

    Waddya mean inflamatory! I’m trying to pour oil on the waters here.

  60. Boadicea.

    Your comments #66. and #72
    Apologies for the delay in replying, Boadicea, I opened my post for comments again at the first opportunity, and I haven’t been back to my PC since.

    As I said earlier, what contributes personal abusive is subjective and in my view some of the comments in my opinion could be described as such. But, I am happy to let them stand and either respond to them, ignore them or delete them. I am also happy for you to moderate any comments on my post which you find offensive. We discussed this earlier in this post.

    As regards the depth of feeling, I am completely aware that this is a subject which produces such responses, including my own, and I have no objection to this, however, I do try as far as I can, to respond or comment objectively. I appreciate most of the responses I have received and I spent time responding to them.

    I agree with your objections to conversations taking place within post, it is annoying and unnecessary. It is not something I tend to do, and I have no intention of doing it again.

    I rarely feel it necessary to delete comments from my posts, or close the post for comments, but it was very late last night and I regarded the posts by some to be examples of what you describe as “slash and burn” ; once again my judgement here.

    I did not immediate delete them but dealt with them as I saw fit. I invited them to post something more relevant to the subject of the post, rather than their opinions on the author! “Play the ball, not the man”
    Dissenting views are welcome, indeed, expected on my posts, Boadicea! Those who choose not adhere to conventional standards of behaviour, are not. I am perfectly willing to engage in robust debate.

    I really don’t have the time to go through each comment and delete the parts which I find offensive, although I appreciate that you are obliged to, as the owner of the site. My preference is to leave them by and large. To be honest, on a previous post, at your request, I did take the time to do some serious moderation. It is quite difficult to second guess your opinions on comments or parts thereof, so I am perfectly happy to abide by your decisions. As a rule, I do not particularly object to off-topic or irrelevant comments either, providing they are politely expressed.

    In conclusion, I really do not have any objections to the re-instatement of the deleted comments with or without any amendments which you may feel necessary.

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