I wonder if it’s worth it for me, personally, to read Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s new book. Since her views are so close to mine, and she speaks with greater authority, I would only be nodding my head in agreement through most of it, reinforcing the views I already hold:
A feminist, she is infuriated by those Western feminists who will not take on subjects such as female circumcision, honour killing and the sale of brides in Muslim societies (and among Muslims in our own societies) because they wish to blame Western colonialism for all ills. Reference
The way to better understanding, I have generally found, is to read the views of those with whom you disagree. I would, however, recommend her work to those of you who insist on seeing the other point of view through the lens of your own cultural values, not those which apply in forming that other view.
Boadicea's Chariot 
And Ayaan Hirsi Ali actually knows what she’s talking about. Shame on western feminists who are in fact not really feminists at all, but the usual “useful idiots” for Islam.
So, you know all there is to know on the subject of female circumcision then, and the experiences of a woman born in Somalia? You don’t need to read the book.
Read the views of those with whom you disagree? Not a bad idea, I agree. I have on many occasions, there is no point in merely re-enforcing one’s own narrow prejudices. In fact the study of history, if nothing else, teaches one to do that.
Insist on seeing the other point of view? I doubt you would find many people who insist the practice of female genital mutilation is anything other than barbaric.
Looking at this through your own cultural values would lead you to condemn this practise, as do all of us in the West. Looking at this though the cultural values of those who do this and have been doing so for centuries would involve trying to understand why. The most awful thing about this is the fact that through indoctrination, cultural norms and lack of education or choice, it is for the most part the mothers and females who take these small girls to be mutilated because their society regards this as normal, if not desirable, and the alternative is devalue their worth as suitable marriage material.
So, in fact you are rightly condemning this because your own cultural values decree this is wrong. Or is this is not so, whose cultural values are you using to make this judgement?
Despite the assertion that this is done for purely religious reasons, it is not only practised by Muslims but this is predominantly a feature of African and Arab cultures certainly.
No. I know what it is, how it is done and to whom it is done. I do not know everything there is to know about giving birth to a baby, either, does that mean I have to read every new book published on the subject? The acknowledgenebt that, ‘She speaks with greater authority,’ was not lightly made. Nor have I ever minimised the assertion of my own cultural values, nor failed to acknowledge the flaws in my own society and failures to live up to those values, when such are apparent.
‘insist on seeing the other point of view through the lens…et sec.’ The point was not aimed at seeing the other point of view, but seeing the whole of it, without selection. It is precisely to overcome the ‘indoctrination, cultural norns and lack of education,’ that the cultural values that condemn such practices, and others that oppress people because of gender, religion, caste or, yes, sexual preference, should be forcefully asserted rather than deprecated on grounds of racism, colonialism, imperialism or any other -ism.
*btw. The prevalence of female genital muilation corresponds almost exactly with the muslim belt of sub-saharan Africa, with the greatest percentage prevalence, according to Amnesty International and the WHO in Egypt, with occurences in the Arabian Peninsula, Iraq, Quwait and Jordan and an almost purely ceremonial form in Indonesia. Some occurrences have also been documented in South America. (Don’t take my word for it though, the data are available online.) So, perhaps Miss Ali knows whereof she speaks.
Miss Ali is certainly qualified to speak on the subject, Bravo, although I do not hold her in quite such high regard as some. She is very vocal on the subject of the abuse of women in some Muslim countries and certainly has my admiration in that respect.
Regarding the statistics, Bravo, I have done quite a bit of research on this subject, and I don’t dispute your last paragraph. Are you aware that female circumcision, although not so common in Europe is practised in the US, and has been for some time?
I first came across the subject when I was asked to to read a manuscript from an American woman I met some years ago who was not aware that her parents had mutilated her until she married. She wrote of this and how it affected her life and was looking for a publisher. It was very much a taboo subject and still is, but nevertheless not an isolated occurrence, as you will discover if you care to check.
Regarding the rest of your comment #3, I cannot see much that is in variance with my comment #2, except perhaps a mistaken belief that you are the only one capable of “seeing the whole of it, without selection”, or is this just another way of asserting that your conclusions are always the correct ones?
typo: “at variance” in my last paragraph.
This is the first sentence from the AHA mission statement. The bold is mine though, but it is interesting that Miss Ali correctly attributes this abuse to fundamentalist Islam and militant Islam, and not to Islam in general.
I don’t know how much you know about Miss Ali, Bravo but she is a politician and she did gain political asylum under false pretences, so in fact she could be described as one your dreaded illegal immigrants if one were to be uncharitable, and her father was educated in the West and was opposed to female circumcision. It was her grandmother reputedly who was responsible.
Please do not insult me:
I am tired of explaining that I do not claim that my views are always correct and that I always give references, where possible, to support my views – also that I generally give a reference which contains the entire argument, with appropriate balance wherever possible.
Is it your view then that 95% of the population of Egypt, for example, are ‘fundamentalists?’
It is not only in the US that this despicable practice occurs, but in UK too. The website of the Foundation with which Miss Ali is associated and from which you quote also contains:
As to Miss Ali’s immigration status, I wrote in the other place that should a case be made against her, she should be arraigned and tried like anybody else. This was done under Dutch law and the verdict was returned in line with a rather liberal interpretation of the law which was in line with preavailing opinion of the time. It would seem that opinions, in response to events, have altered since that time, as has also been the case in mainland Europe in Denmark, Switzerland, Germany and Belgium, to name the most prominent.
Discrimination against, and oppression of, women and of which female genital mutilation is the most horrific case, is embedded in islamic society and culture. Ignoring any expression of such pracitces is to ignore the whole. Allowing such practices to occur in our society, in spite of the law, is exactly that against which Miss Ali rails, as do I. Miss Ali advocates more forceful expression of the values of our society, as do I. Miss Ali points out the folly of such policies as publishing official documents in languages other than the official language of the Country, as do I. Miss Ali deprecates official connivance in the segregation of muslim women, as do I. Need I continue? Since my views correspond so closely with hers, that was the point of the original question; would I gain anything by reading material which so closely mirrors my own view?
Bravo, again, you are citing all the same sources which I have read and I do not disagree with your facts. You are missing my point.
It is embedded in some African and Arab societies which are Islamic but as you have pointed out, it is a cultural practice which most sources agree, pre-dates Islam and the hadith you mention is used as a justification in sharia.
It is in fact illegal in Egypt but practice continues with the collaboration of women in such areas because they are in the main largely uneducated agrarian populations and it is a very difficult task to educate women to accept that there are others ways for them to obtain social approval. It is also done for what are believed to be health reasons which have no justification in fact.
As you also pointed out it has become largely symbolic in the largest Muslim state, Indonesia, and it is also uncommon once women are educated to understand the issues.
It is not simply not enough to make the practice illegal.
This is just one of many studies, which all emphasize these points.
PS: I was not insulting you; I was drawing a conclusion from your words and asking a question, which you have now answered.
Also my reference to the US was to point out that this also happens in Christian white societies.
Your reference to the UK and any instances in Europe are most certainly with reference to recent immigrant communities largely.
Also there are few instances of FGM in Turkey, another Islamic state.
I think that I’m coming down with a cold. I have a headache that would kill a lesser man. I’ll catch up later.
Also in immigrant communities. Although I did, rather shockingly, find this in the same reference:
Note that although it is carefully avoided, the focus of the practice remains the muslim belt of Africa, and the backward states of the Middle East. The closest Amnesty International comes to acknowledging this is to say N and NE Africa, in other words, muslim Africa. It is the oppression and repression of women in islam that contributes to the persistence of the practice. I know, as you do, that female mutilation is not a tenet of islam, but the practitioners say it is – which brings me back to my point about the rule of gods being nothing of the sort, just superstition perpetuated by old men with beards. Never mind the women doing it to their own daughters, if the old men with beards said ‘god says stop it,’ the practice would die out and save 8,000 young girls a day from this barbaric mutilation. (Amnesty International estimate.)
And now I really am going to take to my bed of pain.
Get well soon, Bravo. I don’t think we are exactly at loggerheads with this issue though.
See you later.