I am so happy that I do not live in a world that allows outrages such as this!
There’s probably not much in this year that has angered me as this has.
I am so happy that I do not live in a world that allows outrages such as this!
There’s probably not much in this year that has angered me as this has.
Boadicea's Chariot 
Me too.
Dystopian horror dispensed by a mad oligarchy running completely out of control.
The whole bloody country is up a creek without a paddle
Court of Protection? What a misnomer, more akin to the Spanish Inquisition! And about as evil.
One must also ask where the hell were the Italian lawyers defending one of their nationals?
One must also ask why the doctors were willing to break their Hippocratic oaths? Do no harm? I would have thought eviscerating some poor crazy bitch’s belly without permission was harm, wouldn’t you?
Quite wonderful democratic process these days in the UK. I have just been reading The Iron Heel by Jack London. Considering it was written in 1908 it is prophetically and hideously accurate as to what is happening in our world now.
It always amuses me in a somewhat sardonic way that the British deplore Nazi antics with “The it couldn’t happen here syndrome”. Well that theory seems to have been blown out of the water. One wonders when Essex social services will get round to gas chambers!
Hi Mrs O
Yes, I can put my hand on my heart and and vow that if this had happened to a family member of mine (no matter how distant) or a good friend’s family member I would make every single person involved in this decision making process pay.
Hi Soutie, I too spluttered over my cornflakes. Completely barmy.
Evening Sipu
We have our fair dose of horror crimes, but this? Instigated and approved by the state?
Horrible
#2 Yes, I would feel inclined to build some kind of retributory device for the Essex Social Services department building , just for starters!
I’m sure I have mentioned in the past my son’s sticks of weeping gelignite under his bed? Being rammed by the cleaner’s vacuuming on occasion? Thank God she was somewhat dilatory!!!
Very carefully they were removed to the river and a tree stump was blown up.
One tries not to notice such things in Wild West Wales!
As an engineer he always reckoned that you could make a bizarre selection of bombs from everyday objects, he and an uncle of his spent quite some time blowing things up (discreetly)
Maybe it is a good thing he is not around to facilitate his ancient mama’s more rabid desires!
I know the first judge who started it all and gave the OK for the ‘assault’ on the woman, he was a customer, (adulterer) in my restaurant in Wales, family lived nearby and still do. Wasn’t impressed then and certainly not now. One of his nieces lived with a meth cook that committed suicide this summer in one of the local villages whilst I was home, (right opposite my regular drinking haunt) Yes, real nice family!!! perhaps he should concentrate on his relatives rather than nutty itinerant Italians!
Small world.
CO, good evening. I’ll be doing my usual ‘We don’t know all the facts because we weren’t there’ schtick to Soutie at some point but I feel that I ought to offer you some advice first.
Being rude about judges can be an offence. One of the most enjoyable facts that I learned in my time in the Law Faculty of the Uni of Embra is that it is known as ‘murmuring’ a judge.
In your defence, you are not murmuring, You are, as usual, very audible. And, having Wikied the appalling Mr Justice Mostyn, I personally do not think that you are maligning him in any way. The truth will out.
Things in the Utterly Stupefying Aggro are really no better.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxDYMk-KTT0
Bloody Nigerians.
Ah Christopher, I see you watch RT. As fine a news network as any you will find.
Actually, having just read his Wiki bio, I must say I rather warm to the man. A Catholic Amplefordian who spent much of his childhood abroad and the son of a BAT executive to boot, are all good things.
He ‘named his latest batch of seven pigs after his thoughts on the case’s high court judge, Mr Justice James Munby: James, Munby, Self-regarding, Pompous, Publicity, Seeking, Pillock.’ Good stuff.
Not wild about his huge awards to divorced women, though I think English law is to blame for that iniquitous state of affairs and I am not thrilled about his adulterous behaviour. But adultery and divorce are so common place these days, one should not be too critical of one particular individual. Of course the Essex judgement does seem complete lunacy.
Mostyn labels himself “Catholic, Welsh and Wagnerian,”[3] enjoys smoking, hunting, windsurfing and skiing; and follows (“generally despairingly”) Southampton F.C. and the England cricket team.
The only thing wrong there is that he watches football.
With feelings running to high on the Chariot, I hesitate to ask what you all suggest the correct action vis-a-vis the woman might have been?
Janus, this is difficult since it is the welfare of the baby that must come first and the mother’s stupidity in stopping her medication could have put this at risk. In view of the fact that all the family seems to be in Italy, I would have shipped her off home. Not having read the details, I’m not sure why Social Services got involved but there must have been serious concerns about child safety. Can one forcibly medicate someone, like force feeding? If so, the mother could perhaps have been restored to normal.
The child was taken away from her, effectively even before it was born, because she was deemed incapable. I would argue that is just a small step away from eugenics. Would the Essex SS (I rather like that) have allowed her to get pregnant in the first place could they have prevented it, legally or otherwise?
I refer you to My Learned Friend’s judgement: ‘We don’t know all the facts because we weren’t there’.
Right, let’s put this back on a basic journalistic level for the benefit of the hard of understanding and Sun readers everywhere.
1) What were the legal grounds on which ESSex Social Services saw right to intervene in this case’ Can you imagine the outcry if Italian despots had done the same to a British visitor to Amalfi?
2) On the other hand, did the SS do a good job by rescuing a vulnerable baby from a foreign head-banger albeit a bit prematurely?
For the record, the text above is deliberately provocative. 🙂
OZ
The lady is apparently Bipolar. We have a friend who is Bipolar, I’ve witnessed his extreme mood changes, could he become violent and a danger? Possibly, although I’ve never seen him as such.
This lady was considered stable enough to have employment, in fact the reason that she was in England was a training course at the request of her employers, doesn’t seem to me that sectioning her for 5 weeks in an asylum rather than medication was anywhere near the right decision.
Then a judge after a request by the SS (brilliant acronym) ordered the caesarian! She claims she wasn’t told or consulted, if the baby’s life was in danger fair enough, the mother would surely want what’s best but no consultation? Unbelievable!
The baby belongs in Italy, she has family there (2 siblings, grandparents etc.) and apparently no shortage of offers for care or even adoption
I don’t have to know all the facts to know that babies and families go together.
OZ, exactly. I may differ from others in believing that the SS are not invariably incompetent fools. In fact there must have been extreme circumstances to prompt their decisions. If deportation had been an option/solution/consideration, the woman herself certainly had a view and was almost certainly asked for it.
I’m afraid the meeja is too happy to report such cases without access to the facts.
I really fear that eventually, all decent peoples’ patience is going to run out and we are going to see anti government (i.e. LibLabCon) feeling go past the tipping point and we will see violence as in Ukraine or Thailand. I hope not but the clock is getting nearer to midnight! It is easily within the present government’s remit to do something about this appalling state of affairs, but I doubt if they will. As I have said in the past, I think most of the judiciary these days are superannuated hippies. Hippies as in the types who squat in other peoples’ property etc..
As a foreign national she should have been sent home. Not our problem.
As now, call the Italian Embassy and tell them to collect the child immediately for repatriation.
FEEG re 19 appears the only way left to clear the Augean stables. Needs a blood bath to sort that lot out.
Sipu: the story is well-documented and RT, for its faults, is not much worse than the BBC or any US network. They have an agenda which leads them to find the foibles and failures in countries Russia considers unfriendly. The point remains the same, things like this frequently happen in the USA despite its protests to the contrary. My experiences in the country had not made me inclined to stand up for it in the least, especially since having German nationality is the only reason I was not destroyed by the police on spurious charges. I’ve known too many people who have been ruined in the USA for no other reason than to make the local governments look good.
Janus: the said woman was taken into care. She did not pose an immediate threat to herself and her child. Due process, had it been followed, would have favoured a less gruesome result. That she was taken into custody was in order, she was having a psychotic episode and it was in her own best interest to be examined. The secrecy surrounding the court and its decisions is utterly terrifying.
Christopher, I fear you may have taken my comment the wrong way. I love RT. They tell stories about the West our local media would never dream reporting, especially stuff about the US. For the same reason I watch Al Jazeehra and CCTV.
Try telling Baby P that.
Soutie ans Christopher, let’s not fall out about this but my guess is that there were good reasons why the operation was deemed to be the best course and why ‘family’ was not a solution for the baby – at least not immediately.
Luckily for all all of us, there remain rules of confidentiality which prevent our medical histories being in the public domain.
I know that it is a problem with bipolar sufferers that in a “manic” stage they felt good and “knew” they no longer needed to take the lithium. Inevitable swing of the pendulum. The mother was well enough to be sent to England on a course and felt well enough to stop her medication. The ensuing depressive state must have worried people around her so much that the authorities were alerted because of the baby.
No doctor “breaks the Hippocratic oath” to perform a termination. In this case it may have saved the baby’s life.
Hi Soutie
I would like to start by pointing out that we weren’t there and that we don’t know all the facts.
I’ve done a bit of checking of what I can find in the public domain and I’m not convinced that the situation is as black and white as the Media are choosing to portray it.
As I understand it, this poor woman came from Italy to the UK in a heavily pregnant condition to attend a seminar relevant to her employment. I have no idea if her attendance was insisted upon by her employers or was of her own volition. Doesn’t seem to me to have been a good idea in her condition whatever the reason.
Whilst here, she suffered a panic attack in her hotel room because she could not find her children’s passports. She phoned the police who came to her assistance. Having contacted her mother in Italy, the police established that her two children were not with her because the Italian Courts had given their custody to said mother. I’m guessing that might have rung a few alarm bells and could be why the police took her to hospital where, after examination, she seems to have been detained under s 3 of the Mental Health Act. There appears to have been evidence that she had not been taking her medication and was in such a state that the local Health Trust chose to call in the dreaded SS out of their concerns for both the woman herself and her unborn child.
The SS presumably checked her background with the Italian authorities at that point. There seems to be evidence that she had been hospitalised on mental health grounds three times in Italy and that two of those episodes were compulsory detentions. The grandmother had at one point opposed contact between the mother and the two children because of her concerns although the two are now reconciled.
It was the Health Trust and not the SS who applied for the Caesarian section purely on medical grounds. Moving on, the SS assert that they made attempts to find carers from the extended family but nobody came forward at that time. They also claim that the mother had contact with the child after the birth and that she was consulted and kept informed at all stages.
The secrecy aspect of the whole affair does appall me. I am often less than completely polite to Cutley, formerly known as SG, on the Other Place. All my fault. His dad was one one my greatest heroes and I can’t stop myself being invidious to him, progenitor-wise. But paragraphs 2-5 of Cutley’s recent blog are, in my opinion, superb. and say it all
http://my.telegraph.co.uk/slightly_grumpy/cutley/16257254/have-english-judges-turned-their-backs-on-justice/
That secrecy has been blown out of the water as the matter will now be dealt with by the President of the Family Courts. Confidentiality will still be maintained but I am fairly confident that when Lord Justice Munby finally disposes of this case there will be transparency in his judgment. I have no idea if the baby will be returned to her mother or adopted. I am personally satisfied that the primary concern will be the welfare of the child.
There’s a lot more to say and there have clearly been mistakes. For example, the apparent way in which the woman was deemed fit to travel and rushed back to Italy after such a traumatic birth stinks for me. I have, however, rambled on for far too long already.
My own conclusion is that it’s a tragic situation and desperately sad for everybody involved. I do not, however, believe that the way in which the various agencies and professionals involved have done what they did should fill me with despair about the world in which I live or give me the right to excoriate those who had to make the decisions they made or take the decisions they took.
“The mother had two other children which she was unable to care for due to orders by the Italian authorities” – I’m sure there is more to the story than meets the eye. .
Ah, thank you Mr Mackie.
I have been following this sad tale in the media and on My T, and I have read the post by Charles. I am not in any way persuaded that we should despair, in this instance either.
I am, however persuaded that anonymity is essential, but secrecy is not. Justice should be seen to be done in the main.
Janus: this is one of those cases that cannot have a good result. No matter how it was handled it was not going to be pleasant for anyone involved. While this may not reveal anything about systematic abuse, it should lead to greater oversight into how these cases are handled and a review to ensure that abuses have not and do not occur. It’s better to take every chance to make sure things are done correctly, or at least as correctly as possible.
I see JM filed a far more comprehensive report than I at the same time… I have just refreshed my page and found it posted at 9:04.
I can’t add anything except ‘what he said’ – 🙂
Morning sheona
It wasn’t giving baby P to his mother at birth what killed him, nor was it allowing baby P home with her when she was discharged. No. It was the abject failure of the SS and other services to follow up and do their jobs what killed him.
Morning JM
Thank you for the time and effort put into your response.
I’m afraid that I strongly disagree with the way it appears State intervention and control of peoples lives is accepted in the UK and probably much of Europe.
What also gets me is that a lot (some / most) of the population accept it and consider it normal, it isn’t!
The time frame from hospitilisation to birth and the decision to remove the child can in my opinion in no way be justified, I do not believe that enough time and effort was put into this case to find a happy ending.
SG’s post on the way British courts make decisions and judgements makes frightening reading, I agree, the system stinks.
As this case is investigated further by the press more and more detail of this poor woman’s plight is revealed. JM mentions in #26 above “As I understand it, this poor woman came from Italy to the UK in a heavily pregnant condition”
I thought so too.
Today we are told that she was just FOUR months pregnant!!!
“It was last summer that Alessandra, who suffers from a bipolar condition, was visiting Britain to train as an air hostess.
At the time, she was four months pregnant with her daughter,”
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2518417/Alessandra-Pacchieri–I-feel-baby-kicking-inside-I-crying-I-begged-cut-open.html
Plenty of time to ship her home once her bipolar condition had stabalised.
In fact the whole Mail article makes very sorry reading
This reveals yet more facts: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/10496054/Forced-caesarean-was-manifestly-in-Alessandra-Pacchieris-interest-says-judge.html
Thanks for the link, Janus. It seems that the more medical details are released, the less justified is the initial hysteria.
My question is now: who thought this woman would be a suitable air hostess?
Sheona, only on a super-jumbo, I fear. 😉
Ach weel…….It is not clear how long the ‘problems’ had been going on – events which precipitated actions which might now seem ‘hysterical’. The component issues (foreign, unstable woman, previous births, visitor status in the UK) seem to me to justify concern.
evening sheona
Are you referring to the initial hysteria by the police and SS or the recent hysteria in the press?
The air hostess question is in my opinion immaterial, she could have been on holiday or seeking work, the authorities would surely have acted in the same manner.
I can see no justification for the woman’s treatment. surely the civilised way was to have a relative come from Italy and escort her home, it was not the business of the British state.
Like soutie, I too am rather horrified how many here seem to accept the intrusion and interference of the State into individuals’ lives.
Talk about walking into disaster!
You can just see how Mengele got away with it for years!
Apart from that, why on earth is Essex SS so damned keen to acquire a sprog with such dubious genetics?
Who would want to adopt the spawn of a mentally unstable, loose woman? Evidently all the children had different fathers and this child is multi ethnic with no father around. Bound to cost the state a fortune as an ongoing, why not let the Italians pay?
I totally fail to comprehend this need to busybody in others’ affairs.
I don’t often comment these days, but there are times when, even as a born-again nice guy, I feel strongly enough to blow the cobwebs from my keyboard and publish my down-under-coloured opinions.
Soutie and Christina have my full support.
Fellow Charioteers who abrogate their responsibilities as human beings and condemn their fellows by chanting the contemporary (and contemptible) British mantras – “you don’t know all the facts” and “the authorities, especially judges, are sure to have been right” – do not.
Attempts to justify physical assault on a sick foreign national and the subsequent kidnap of an infant are unbelievably abhorrent in my book. Moral re-education is strongly recommended. 😦
Glad you’re back to form, Bearsy. 🙂
And now, some more facts emerge…….
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2520015/Marino-Pacchieri-Why-I-DONT-believe-daughter-Alessandra-baby.html
Withstanding I still hold to #39.
Not our business.
I agree with Mrs O.
I think most of us agree that the lady is probably not fit or stable enough to look after a child, (it has been well reported that her other 2 children are I believe in the care of her parents) my point has always been the the child deserves to be with her family in her homeland.