In the light of the recent meeting that took place between HM The Queen and Martin McGuinness, I thought this short film added a certain poignancy to the event.
In the light of the recent meeting that took place between HM The Queen and Martin McGuinness, I thought this short film added a certain poignancy to the event.
Boadicea's Chariot 
Forgiveness has to start somewhere, indeed, Sipu.
Hi Ara, I was invited down to Henley on Sunday, but did not fancy the weather, so went to a mega lunch here in London instead.
Hello Sipu.
Yes, the weather was pretty awful here, so good choice. Did you enjoy the Thames Pageant?
PS. Sunday is a bit of an odd day. No crowds which is good, but not much rowing!
Yes, the pageant was excellent thanks. We got there late, there being a barge near Vauxhall, but were kept refreshed during our journey, on public transport, with ample supplies of champagne and bloody marys. The flotilla was amazing, despite the weather and everybody was in excellent spirits. On the whole I drank far too much and ate far too little, but enjoyed myself thoroughly. I think!
I have relished my sojourn in London. I am currently staying near South Kensington which, given the huge number of French speakers, could better be described as’ Kensington du Sud’. I am not exaggerating when I say that you are more likely to hear French spoken than English. I think it is terrific. I have always loved the French and they bring Parisian chic to what in the 1970s was known as Saudi Kensington.
I went to stay with my sister and brother in law in Hampshire a couple of weeks ago. He is a good egg who has been successful in a number of areas. When I arrived he had just returned from a ‘cultural diversity’ conference at a school for severely disabled children and adults.He is chairman of the board of governors. Given that it is a charity and pretty demanding for a number of reasons, I felt that it was a bit much that anybody should demand that the staff should better reflect the diversity of the pupils who do come from a wide range of ethnic and cultural backgrounds. He, being the gracious man that he is, accepted that diversity was important but had been forced to argue that while pupils could come from all over the country, the staff, by necessity were recruited locally. And that part of the country just happened to be home to white middle class English. Anyway, the next day we went off to see Madame Butterfly at The Grange. I don’t know if you have ever been there, but it is the poor relation of Glyndbourne. That being said, it ain’t so damn poor. The setting is beautiful, if not spectacular and opera almost by definition is a somewhat costly affair. When we arrived and at the picnic during the interval, I could not help notice that the entire audience seemed to have comprised the population of WASP City. As the great and the good of this fair land, many of them no doubt ‘captains of industry’, I felt certain that they would have all endorsed the idea of cultural diversity, just so long as it remained in the work environment.
As for the opera, the music was wonderful though the principal herself might easily have been described as possessing a fuller figure – more Mrs Moth than Madame Butterfly. But it was lovely.
It sounds as though you are having a thoroughly civilised time here, Sipu. Many thanks for the most interesting description of your activities.
No, I haven’t been to The Grange, but just googled it, I’m not in the least bit surprised by your description of the audience; ’tis the leafy shires, and all that!
A propos your thread (!) forgiveness is an interesting religious concept. E.g. “Father forgive them, etc”. Is it intended to assuage the conscience of the offender or calm the anger of the bereaved? Or both? No doubt many words have been used on this over the years.
I have the feeling that both HM the Queen and MMcG might both prefer the term ‘reconciliation’.
Forgiveness is far more rewarding than reconciliation. If your partner cheats on you, you can reconcile with her/him, but unless you forgive, love will never return. Unless the Loyalists and Republicans really forgive each other for past wrongs, there will never be true peace. Forgiveness if for ever, reconciliation only lasts until next time.
Sipu, I have serious doubts whether in the real world forgiveness actually exists because it purports to acquit wrongdoers of their misdemeanours. Can anybody do that?
It was quite noticeable that Prince Philip avoided shaking Martin McGuiness’s hand. And, quite honestly, I can’t blame him. I don’t think I could shake hands with someone who killed someone dear to me.
Forgiveness may be fine if the sinner has shown remorse – and one is certain that they will never re-offend. However, I don’t think it is ever possible to forget – nor do I think it always wise to do so.
I am in sympathy with my mother’s motto: “Fool me once – shame on you. Fool me twice – shame on me”.
Are you serious? Did you never forgive your children for any of their little misdemeanours when they were growing up? Perhaps you resent every little fault they made; every lie, every breakage, every mess, every act of disobedience, every bit of rudeness, every missed homework. Could you go to your grave knowing that your children still resented you for the time you shouted at them, accused them falsely, possibly slapped them, denied them their pocket money etc? Forgiveness comes from the heart. You astound me.
Sipu
There is a huge difference between a child’s ‘little misdemeanour’ and the betrayal by one’s partner and murder – as you very well know!
Boadicea, I completely take your point that from a practical point you need to sleep with one eye open. But the corollary to that is you never get a good night’s rest. There is a great deal of peace to be had when forgiveness is offered and received.
When I was at boarding school, we all used to get into all sorts of fist fights, often quite leading to bloody noses and tears. The golden rule however, was that at the end, both boys would shake hands and that would be the end of it. More often than not they would become good friends. At home, growing up, my parents always insisted that any family squabbles were resolved before we went to bed. Such practices work. You do forgive and forget, or if not forget, you lose resentment. Of course those are childish examples, but the principles extend to more serious matters. The habit of forgiving learned as a child makes it easier to do so as an adult.
As for Prince Philip, I would not like to speculate that he deliberately refrained from shaking McGuinness’s hand. To have refused to do so, especially in the presence of the Queen, would have been a very pointed gesture and would have undermined her completely. Don’t forget, they did meet in a private audience away from the cameras. Of course, it may never have been intended that the two men should shake hands. However, I did note that Prince Philip was smiling as the Queen shook hands a second time on her departure, as can be seen here.
http://tribune.com.pk/story/400044/queen-elizabeth-buries-the-hatchet-shakes-hands-with-ex-ira-commander/
Only in scale. What constitutes theft? £.01, £1, £10, £100, £1,000, £1,000,000?
The art of forgiveness is learned as a child so that it can be practised as an adult. I sincerely believe that many of the problems we face today are down to the fact that people do not seek or offer forgiveness instead the wronged demand restitution while the guilty person anticipates punishment. An eye for an eye. It is the Judaic/Islamic alternative to the Christian ethic – I know which one I prefer – and is what makes divorce so prevalent and lawyers so damned rich.
It strikes me as interesting that Britain has become so hugely litigious in recent years. It coincides with an increasing abandonment of traditional Christian principles. I believe that an overwhelming influence has emerged from the US in this respect and I think it bears examining the source of this influence.
Sipu
One doesn’t necessarily have to sleep with one eye open – it’s quite easy to get a good night’s sleep! Nonetheless should ‘warning bells’ start sounding – one should listen to them rather than ignore them – as one probably did the first time around…
Unfortunately, you chose the wrong example to convince me of your point of view: the high incidence of divorce. In the UK, I don’t know about elsewhere, it is less than a hundred years since a woman could seek a divorce on the same grounds that a man could divorce his wife. For a long time after that social, economic and religious pressures kept women in miserable marriages with no hope of release. They had no choice but to outwardly ‘forgive’…
As to your argument that it is all a matter of scale – I don’t buy into that one either! Theft is theft – full stop. And I really don’t see how one can consider that there is a ‘minor’ betrayal or a ‘minor’ murder.
Sipu, I don’t resent what people might have done just because I don’t share your ‘heart-felt’ decision to acquit them of blame. We all hurt each other from time to time; we hate the sin and not the sinner. Why complicate it with this forgiveness mumbo-jumbo?
If I found £1 on the back seat of a taxi and kept it, I doubt anybody would regard it as theft. If I found £10,000 and kept it, it most certainly would be. Similarly, I am not sure that every woman would happily accept Churchill’s definition (apocryphal no doubt) of prostitution, despite the fact that a bit of jewelry invariably eases the path to the bedroom.
Minor betrayal – I told your husband that you were preparing a surprise party for him
Major betrayal – I told your husband that you were planning to leave him.
Murder, I agree is murder, but it does rather depend on the legal definition within the jurisdiction in which it occurs. In Florida and probably many other states and nations they seem to have a more relaxed approached to the taking of life. But wherever you live, from a moral perspective there can well be extenuating circumstances
Pregnancy is an interesting one. It is a cliche to say that one cannot be a little bit pregnant, though that is pretty much the argument that abortionists use to advance their cause.
Regarding the divorce laws of 100 years ago, I am sure that from a legal perspective and from this era, they do appear to be frightfully one-sided. But one cannot juxtapose the laws of one generation with the social mores of another. Recently I came across a statement made in about 1870, by my great-grandmother who was a very privileged lady, married to a highly influential man. She made a speech about female suffrage in which she said she was quite happy with the status quo since her husband would vote exactly the way she told him to. People seem to think that because legally men had the upper hand, women were totally disregarded. You only have to read a bit of contemporary literature to know the influence women brought to bear on their menfolk. Women shaped society as much as men. It was women after all who raised their boys to become men!
I know lots of women and men who know their partners have gone astray but still forgive and love them as much as ever. And I know lots of people who choose not to forgive and are now unhappily divorced.The thought of being alone, terrifies many women.There are huge consequences to divorce that go beyond living separately. A single divorced man is socially far more attractive than a divorced woman. Ironically, perhaps, it is married women who make them so.
I can see that we will have to disagree about forgiveness, though I would like to conclude by saying that I would rather possess, than lack the capacity to forgive and, unquestionably, I find that quality attractive in others. Mais, à chacun son goût!
I would very much appreciate the chance to facilitate the act of forgiveness for McGuiness.
I believe the forgiveness idea is a religious fallacy which comes from the mysteries of the confessional. It’s a kind of ‘abracadabra’ to wish away a problem and is now regarded as a virtue of some kind. ‘Will you forgive me?’ ‘Of course, I’m a good person.’ As if that changed anything! And the backstop is that if the malefactor can’t find anybosy to ‘forgive’ him, he can go to the priest and buy a favour from the supernatural. Equipped and ready to offend again.
No, I’l go with reconciliation and avoid stretching my credibilty tendons.
As is typical Janus, you failed to answer the question. Did you never forgive your children for any of their wrongdoings?
You mean, did I say abracadabra? No.
PS be careful, your ‘as is typical’ suggests you are straying down your usual path.