My younger daughter has got religion. I’m not quite sure how she managed it, being a firmly rational type up until now, but there it is.
The problem is the type of religion she’s ‘got.’ She has joined one of those happy, clappy, give me 10% of your wages and buy the t-shirt, book and other promotional items, evangelical thingies. I’ve learned that it is orginally an Australian church and there is some speculation about how the ‘pastors, Brian and Bobby Houston managed to build a real-estate empire…
If any of the antipodean charioteers could give me a steer on the matter, I’d be very grateful. My daughter’s a grown woman and what she does or doesn’t do is up to her, but if these two ‘pastors,’ are at it with her 10%, I’d be grateful for a steer.
Boadicea's Chariot 
High risk, but encourage her so that she comes quickly to the concusion that she is being taken for a ride.
How very worrying for you, bravo. I’m sorry I can’t offer any help apart from agreeing with zenrules. Don’t get her back up. Softly, softly.
Bravo I can’t answer you directly but I can give you some bits and bobs. My angle is the music and some knowledge of the former worship leader of “Hillsong” whose name is Darlene Zschech. I know many of her songs. They are not just “happy clappy” but real meaningful, worshipful and anthemic; I would even call some ‘rock’. All written songs centred on Christ Jesus . I googled her name with ‘Hillsong’ and came up with these Wiki extracts: she was worship pastor 1995 to 2007 but still does appearances/concerts under the Hillsong banner. She is now with “Hope Unlimited Church”, Charmhaven, New South Wales Church. In the Wiki extract there was one reference to dubious activities of the Hillsong directors.
All I can really say is that the Hillsong organisation is really mega world wide – the song record sales and copyright etc must have brought in loads. The most famous song is “My Jesus, my Saviour” also known by the chorus name “Shout to the Lord” but there are other songs, stirring, soulful and well presented by the backing choirs!
I would ask why Darlene Zschech and her husband Mark have left the Hillsong ‘umbrella’. And I don’t know if Brian and Bobby were the designated/chosen leaders to replace Darlene Zschech. Maybe Bearsy can do some homework on the info you have given. From my perspective ‘Hillsong’ is seen to be well respected, but you are right to be cautious.
You Tube will show you many Darlene Zschech songs.
I echo Zens comment, but add, tread carefully, you don’t want to prompt “Mind your own business”, or “its my life, I can do as I like”, or any other similar response. Sometimes people just can’t see the the con artists, lets face it Bravo, we’ve all seen the results of the harm and destruction, these sects, can, and indeed, do.
It won’t be easy, but I think you will have to let the fad run its course, and in many ways, it is just a fad, despite the obvious dangers. It won’t do any harm to warn her of these con artists, even show her prove from the documentation you have, then express your deep concern, but impress on her, that you and her Mum, will be there when she sees the light, the proper light. Trust in time, and good sense Bravo, I’m sure all will be well.
Val
Of course it is a scam but how you convince her of it.
One really does wonder about humanity.
Make sure any assets she has can’t be given away too easily. Income is one thing, giving away property/shares etc etc quite another.
Most of these bastards would steal the skin off a rice pudding.
Another You Tube Hillsong (Darlene Zschech) is Beautiful Lord also known as The Potter’s Wheel. Bravo if you google “Hillsong and Scam” you will see quite a lot of stuff. But if you get to know some of the well known songs at least you have a meeting point of sorts between yourself and daughter.
Howzit Bravo
I’m probably going to be quite contrary here, having spent time with families whose children spend their whole salary on drugs and then revert to a life of crime and knowing alcoholics who have spent their salaries before they get home 10% seems a small price to pay.
I’m no fan of these ‘happy clappy’ churches, they annoy me no end (and yes we have a few here, Ray McCauley comes to mind, he was of course Hanse Cronje’s ‘pastor’) however, if your daughter is happy accept it.
I’m with Mrs O here (comment #5) protect her as best you can and encourage her to have a life both within and outside the church perhaps charity work or some other skill (i.e teaching) that she’s good at.
I don’t want to generilse here but I have the feeling that she’s looking for an outlet, and NO, you can’t provide it, just watch over her.
Best wishes and good luck.
Oh dear, Bravo.
Having done a quick Google on the Brian and Bobbie Houston, as I’m sure you have done, I have grave doubts about this organisation, but perhaps I am being cynical.
Knowing your views on religion, and I assume your daughter knows too, I have to advise extreme caution. In fact you may not be the best person to tackle this issue. Perhaps another member of the family may be in a better position to help her.
If she truly has “got” religion then perhaps she could be persuaded to try other Christian churches. I don’t know where she lives but truly, the best or worst thing that can be said about the good of Church of England is that it does little harm, and doesn’t cost a fortune!
Good luck, but as you point out, she is not a child, but of course you quite rightly want to protect her.
PapaG has it a little wrong about who founded this group of con-artists, but you can all find it on Wiki yourselves. The original founder, Brian’s father Frank, has admitted to kiddie-fiddling back in New Zealand, where they all come from.
Darlene Zschech has also been associated with another group called something to do with “Mercy”, which came under strong criticism for dubious use of funds. She’s no better than she should be.
John Howard has been strongly criticised for his support of this scam, as has Peter Costello (ex Treasurer).
They all are in the extortion business, hiding behind the special tax status that “religions” benefit from in Australia.
Not that it has any relevance, but we used to live (in Cherrybrook) a very short distance from their Sydney HQ.
To turn to practicalities.
Do everything you can to deprogram your daughter, Bravo. Take no notice of those who say that she should be left alone to find her own way. As a father you owe it to her to take every opportunity to expose the way in which she is being deceived.
Years ago – and I believe we’ve mentioned this before – Boadicea and I had to prevent our elder daughter from consigning our grandson (then about 8, I think) to the guilt-ridden clutches of the Roman Catholic “Church”, against his young will. We succeeded, and in the process also managed to cast sufficient doubt into her mind that she has since abandoned the bastards herself.
Do not leave you daughter to face things herself. She will need plenty of moral backup from Dad.
I’m sure you can Google the Hillsong mob as well as anyone, Bravo. There’s loads of it on the Internet and it doesn’t make comfortable reading. We lived just down the road from them when we lived in Sydney and they were certainly well attended.
Their charity status was investigated some years ago – hence the Chasers’ War on Everything clip that Bearsy has posted. Unfortunately the then PM, John Howard, and Treasurer, Peter Costello, came out in support of them. They certainly qualified, since they gave some very small sums to charitable works – the rest, as one might expects, goes into the pockets of the two B…s. (Fill in the gaps!)
I would support Soutie’s comment that your daughter is seeking an outlet or support – and you cannot provide it – if you could she wouldn’t be seeking it elsewhere. What has happened in her life that she feeld she needs to turn to the sort of ‘happy-clappy’ community that this sort of ‘religion’ provides?
My advice would be to run with it. Bearsy has already said that you should not leave your daughter to work it out for herself – and he’s right. My daughter converted to Catholicism some years earlier, but became more fervent when she came to Australia and tried to push her son into the same religion.
My view has always been that it’s up to an adult to decide – she’d made her choice and she should leave her son to make his. We took a two pronged approach. He did the ‘logical’ bit – which often provoked her to storming out of the room, but did at least get her thinking! I took the approach of going along with her – that’s right I went to Mass and the whole thing with her and my grandson…
I won’t go through all the details, but I’m sure that if we had both simply talked ‘logic’ to her or ignored the issue we would have failed dismally. Whatever you else you do – don’t leave her to find her own way out of that mob on her own.
Absolutely right, Boadicea, it is up to the adult to decide! Bravo’s daughter is an adult. I have no idea if a child is involved.
I absolutely agree that there are grounds for concern with this particular bunch, though, and yes, think Bravo might want to consider, as I mentioned, involving some family members.
In the end though, she has a right to lead her own life. As a parent, I would not give up trying to stop my “child” doing something that I feel is fundamentally wrong, but Bravo’s daughter is not a child.
They never stop being one’s children, Araminta.
That would be a cop out – an excuse for not doing anything.
No, of course they don’t, Bearsy, as I said, I would not give up, but they have every right to tell you mind your own business.
Trying to tell them what to do, even with their best interests at heart, is fraught with dangers. One has to proceed with extreme caution, the last thing one would want to do it alienate them. What purpose does that serve?
Who said anything about alienating them?
You really must stop this habit of putting words in my mouth and then disparaging what I haven’t said. It is highly annoying.
Again, who said anything about telling them what to do? Not me. It requires logic, reason, psychology and tact.
Araminta
Had I been around when my daughter converted to Catholicism, I would have endeavoured to put an alternative view. As it was, I was in Australia and she was in the UK. She knew full well what I would have done – since she only told me that she was being ‘baptised’ the night before that event – over the phone. My then son-in-law thought it highly amusing that just as I’d managed to de-program him, my daughter took it up.
As Bearsy says, they never stop being one’s children. I wish they did. It would make life a great deal easier if one could just switch off and walk away when one sees them making dreadful mistakes.
Yes, every adult has the right to make their own choices – but it would, in my opinion, be morally reprehensible to remain silent and do nothing if one sees them marching down a road to disaster…
Bearsy.
I mentioned that it is possible to alienate them, not you! I haven’t remotely put any words into your mouth.
I have never had to deal with this sort of problem, but I have friends who have, and it was an unmitigated disaster.
Boadicea.
Yes, of course it would be morally reprehensible to remain silent, I couldn’t, but in the end they may not listen, and they have to make their own mistakes.
I certainly did, and I’m sure you did. It may just be a question of degree, but all one can do is try to bring them up to make their own decisions, and they will, despite one’s best efforts.
Bearsy, thanks for the corrected summary – I had raced through the Wiki extracts without focusing on the Brian and Bobby History. I do find it repulsive and abhorrent that one should make money out of ‘religion’ though I acknowledge the Bible advises to give back 10%. But to whom? Who or what is the Church? Clearly the church is not a stuffy old parish priest. The Hillsong set-up (with its Worship Teams) is very much up to date. Bearsy’s You Tube clip is a clever expose of what might well be a rotten Leadership. Nonetheless, messages of forgiveness and salvation are heady and powerful stuffy. Isn’t this the message of Christianity?
No it isn’t PG!!
It is a confidence trick to separate the gullible and vulnerable from their money for the benefit of those hypocrites in charge. Jesus, if he existed, would have condemned them as he did with the money lenders. Do not confuse base men who use honeyed words for the true message of Christ – that is heresy, for those that believe in such things. Be not seduced by the blandishments of the Devil. 🙄
Believe me, PG, if there is a hell the Hillsong mob are well on their way there…
Indeed it’s people like the Hillsong mob that make me hope (most unChristianlike!) that there is a hell…
Save the forgiveness for those who repent … the only salvation this mob are interested in is the salvation of their personal bank accounts 🙂
And, by the way, tithing is NOT required by Christ’s teaching in the New Testament.
“Who or what is the Church? Clearly the church is not a stuffy old parish priest.” If you are not sure who or what it is, how can you be sure what it isn’t? I would have thought that for many people the Church is precisely that, which may be one reason why attendances are falling.
Christ’s teaching was to “render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s and unto God that which is God’s”. No mention of cash for the second party.
Thanks for all the comments, everyone. The main reason I have been treading a bit carefully around this problem is my daughter’s awareness of my pre-existing strong feelings about superstition in all shapes and forms. I don’t think this will last – my daughter is too rational to let it go too far, and we do talk about our problems. I need to put together a case, I think, about the church and its dodgy dealings – though I haven’t been able to find out if there was anything which caused the move from NZ to Oz? Can anyone put me in touch with a cult de-bugging organisation in Oz which might have the hillsong church in their sights?
My other thought was to go along ans talk to the vicar of the local church in London when I get back and get his advice. He or she should know where I could get some focussed help, I would imagine?
Check him/her out before you do, there are some very odd priests about.
I think you are wise to check things out Bravo, get all the facts, and ponder. I sometimes see our local vicar, he plays golf at our golf club occasionally, if the chance arises to bend his ears, I will, but only if I think the time and place is right. watch this space. I’m sure the others charioteers will come up with some info that may throw some positive light your way. Until then, be open, don’t hide your fears, express your concern, in the usual ‘daddy way’.
I know, Zen – but there are some good guys too 🙂 Just because they believe in myths doesn’t stop them from knowing a thing or two 🙂
Thanks Val, I think I may have been being over-sensitive about this.
Bravo – I wish you and your daughter well. Just be thankful she does not live in the good ol’ US of A.
Slimey thing
OZ