A Great Decision

I read this story in yesterday’s Australian.

The Family Court of Australia, which deals with things like divorce and custody, determined that an Arranged Marriage made under threats of violence was not valid. The Judge said:

the parents adopted a position based on a cultural practice – but the law to be applied “is that of Australia”.

I’d like this to go further, and and make all arranged marriages illegal.

32 thoughts on “A Great Decision”

  1. I absolutely agree with the judge’s decision in this instance.

    I can understand why you would like this to go further, but I suspect that Australian Law is pretty similar to English Law, and you cannot make all arranged marriages illegal if both parties enter into it of their own free will.

    It is after all a contract.

  2. I suppose not, Araminta. But, I find the whole idea of an arranged marriage extremely distasteful. But, I expect that the product of my background. I simply cannot look at children as ‘property’ to be disposed of at the whim of a parent.

    I will be interested to see whether this decision opens the door to other ‘divorces’ on the same grounds. Whether the courts will decide that any marriage, even those consummated and with children, can be deemed ‘legal’ if either party can show that it was only contracted under duress.

    Some years ago, I listened to a UK lawyer who was solely involved in trying to get dowries returned for women who had divorced their husbands. Not something we think of! One of the major issues was, she explained, that British Law did not recognise dowries.

  3. Well, neither can I, Boadicea but I think that one or other of the parties has to take this to court and prove duress.

    In this case it was pretty conclusive, but yes, it will be interesting to see if this decision inspires other victims of marriages arranged under duress to have the contract set aside.

    I still cannot see how this could legally be extended to all arranged marriages, though, however distasteful we may find them.

    Interesting about the dowries, I can imagine this being difficult.

  4. Once upon a time not so long ago in a remoter part of Papua New Guinea I was seriously offered seventy pigs and a vegetable garden for A Zangada. It was a tough choice of which I reminded her constantly thereafter. 🙂

    OZ

  5. It all rather depends what you imagine an arranged marriage to be.

    I am assuming you are thinking of young women, virtually only just into puberty being shipped of to marry some horny old goat up the Khyber, or alternatively some illiterate young female shipped into Birmingham from the rural backwaters of northern Pakistan to marry someone whose family require a totally obedient slave to look after them and their son. If that is what you are referring to, I deplore the practice, and believe it has led to a lot of the problems with non-integration of younger generations of immigrants within the UK.

    In actual fact amongst very wealthy Hindu and Parsee friends, it is perfectly normal that families decide on who might make a suitable match for the “children”, sometimes well into their late twenties nowadays, and almost all graduates of universities in the UK and the States. The couple have an opportunity to meet and assess whether they are likely to get on with each other. Generally they come from very similar backgrounds, with the parents perhaps knowing each other, or knowing of each other.

    In much of the Middle East, it was almost a given that you would marry a first cousin. I am not sure if that is peculiar to Islam, or to Middle East tribal and family traditions. That has led to increasing problems with congenital disease from consanguinity, and the more enlightened governments are attempting to discourage the practice. For the families involved, the benefits are that family wealth is kept within a tightly knit family grouping, and the couple will have known each other since childhood.The disadvantages obviously are that an increasing number of the issue of such marriages are affected by a range of both mental and physical health problems.

    Of the 60+ year old friends we have of Indian ancestry, I would say about 90 percent have had arranged marriages themselves and of those probably 50% have guided their children into what they considered to be suitable marriages.This does not imply that the couple have never met until their wedding night, incidentally! We are invited to attend a wedding in Bombay in March, and I am itching to find out if the daughter, whom we know, is entering a love match or doing what Mum and Dad told her was best…

  6. Autre pays, autre moeurs, CWJ.

    The concept of children and women as possessions does not accord with Australian culture. Let other lands do what they will; it is of no concern to anyone except their own people.

    But such ideas should be left at the door, along with their shoes, when they choose to live in a modern, civilised society.

    Don’t like it – don’t come.
    Simple!

  7. Bearsy, I think it all depends on perspective. What one person thinks another considers a possession, another may consider a valued member of a family, whose interests you want to protect. I can see why Australia doesn’t want to be swamped by cultures totally alien to the established immigrant populations, predominantly from Europe. Someone told me that there were more Greeks in Australia than in Greece. I imagine they continue to happily smash plates and drink more ouzo than is good for them without causing any major ruffling of Anglo-Saxon feathers. It is curious that it seems to be some imported cultures rather than others which cause the most discomfort to us, wherever we are.

  8. But, Bearsy, if adult “children” agree to this, with no undue force or persuasion, and it is not illegal, then what are your objections?

    Frankly it is likely that the custom will die out in the next generation, so I really am not sure what the objection is; other than it does not accord with Australian culture.

  9. I am, indeed, thinking more about marriage between two people who have never met and from different countries.

    Some many years ago, the school that I taught in was warned that one of our twelve year old, severely intellectually disadvantaged boys was about to be shipped back to India to be married. The principle motive seemed to be an entry visa for the bride and family into Britain. But, for the fact the family was being monitored by Social Services this would have happened. I wouldn’t mind betting that once he left school the family went through with their plans.

    It is often said that the person one should marry is the ‘girl next door’. And that is probably the most common way of meeting one’s future partner – through local social and family connections. I can’t see that there is much difference between that and parents introducing their offspring to ‘suitable’ people – providing that the choice is ultimately the child’s.

    But, one must remember that there are more subtle ways of enforcing choices than mere violence. One of my friends wanted to marry an Indian. His family was opposed, and made it clear that he would be ostracised if he married out of his race and caste. His wife was a delightful woman, but nonetheless, she was not his first choice.

    Banning such marriages might cause problems here, since still in many Aboriginal communities young girls are ‘betrothed’ at birth to men many years their senior.

  10. CWJ – I don’t know how many times I shall have to repeat this, but Australian culture is NOT British culture with sunshine. I must have pointed this out a dozen times at least.

    Your alleged dichotomy twixt “Anglo-Saxon” and “Greek” does not compute. Australian society and culture incorporates Greek and Italian stock in exactly the same way that it incorporates English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish; and German (very strongly in South Australia). And a fair scattering of Chinese, who have been around since the very early days. Darwin retail trade, for example, is run almost entirely by what you might describe as ‘Chinese Australians’ (but we wouldn’t, usually).

    I’ll say it again – Australian culture is not “British with sunshine”. We are a different mix.

    Araminta – the children will only agree when their originating culture has been imposed on them. I know, very well, two Australians whose Lithuanian (in one case) and Lebanese (in the other) parents attempted to impose ‘culture of origin’ restrictions on their friends, associates and potential marriage partners. They loved their parents, but in the end they had to tell them that they were Australian and they would follow Australian practice. They both married their chosen partners and were shunned by their parents. In one case the parents “relented” when the first child was born; in they other, they never have.

    I am not asserting that one system is necessarily better than the other. I am strongly advocating that Australia continues to do what most countries around the world do, and that is to stick to the principle of “our country, our customs”.

    Only in the UK does one have the strange idea that one’s own customs should be suppressed in favour of those of new immigrants.

  11. Bearsy.

    Yes, but your example makes my point, and this is exactly what is happening now in the UK as well. My daughter has a friend she met at university who is is now an extremely high-powered city lawyer.
    Her family are Sikh, and her choice of husband, who was of a higher caste, and I cannot remember the details, caused immense ructions with both families who disapproved of the marriage.

    They consented eventually, with reasonably good grace, but the “children” both graduates and lawyers did not give in to their parents.

    No, we don’t suppress our own customs at all, in the UK, the last Government may well have excelled in positive discrimination, but we are fairly tolerant but not entirely stupid.

  12. Incidentally, Araminta, here’s a tale with a different slant –

    A close colleague of mine, of Chinese ethnicity, spoke three Chinese languages fluently, as well as English and Indonesian. He and his wife tried very hard to bring their son up to be bilingual in English and Mandarin. But the son rejected Mandarin from an early age, saying, “Dad, we’re Aussies; I speak English at school and with my mates – I don’t want to speak Mandarin.”

    All was well until the lad reached 18 or 19 when he fell in love with a girl – who was of similar ethnicity but she was bilingual and her family spoke only Mandarin at home. All of a sudden he was pleading with Mum and Dad to be taught – he went off to night school, too, but his language framework had been cast in concrete and although he now speaks Mandarin quite fluently, it’s with a terrible Aussie accent that causes much mirth with his new wife’s family.

  15. Bearsy :

    CWJ – I don’t know how many times I shall have to repeat this, but Australian culture is NOT British culture with sunshine. I must have pointed this out a dozen times at least.

    Your alleged dichotomy twixt “Anglo-Saxon” and “Greek” does not compute. Australian society and culture incorporates Greek and Italian stock in exactly the same way that it incorporates English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish; and German (very strongly in South Australia). And a fair scattering of Chinese, who have been around since the very early days. Darwin retail trade, for example, is run almost entirely by what you might describe as ‘Chinese Australians’ (but we wouldn’t, usually).

    I’ll say it again – Australian culture is not “British with sunshine”. We are a different mix.

    Och Bearsy, I wish you would stop rubbing our noses in our lack of sunshine. We cannae help it.

    We can, on the other hand, help ourselves in respect to our ‘cultural’ attitude to forced marriages. As Ara says, it has always been an insuperable bar to marriage if it could be proved that both parties did not freely consent to the contract involved. In Jockland, we’re about to re-enforce this statutorily with the passage of the Forced Marriage etc. (Protection and Jurisdiction)(Scotland) Bill which is presently sailing through Parliament with all party support. It will impose criminal sanctions.

    Click to access b53s3-introd.pdf

    England and Wales already have such legislation in place although I believe that there are only civil remedies in that jurisdiction.

    I accept that you do things differently in OZ but I would also suggest that there is no clear evidence in this particular matter that you do them any better than us over here.

    Interesting judge your man Cronin. Where do you stand on his other recent decision to give parenting rights to a gay couple in respect of the twins produced for them by a surrogate mother in India at a price of $40,000?

    http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/ipad/twins-win-for-gay-dads/story-fn6bqphm-1225992674967

  17. JM

    Your new law sounds good, in that it is law and one does not have to resort to civil action.

    I doubt we do any better here. It is the fact that there has been a legal decision that makes this case interesting.

    As I said, there is a problem with Aborignal culture. A case a few years ago highlighted this problem, where a fourteen year old girl refused to marry the very much older man to whom she had been betrothed. The man anally raped the girl, with the girl’s grandmother’s help. When the ‘rape’ came to court, the finding was that this was ‘culturally’ acceptable. There was an uproar, not just in the outside community, but also by Aboriginal women’s groups.

    As to Cronin’s other decision – all I can say is that he obviously doesn’t get it all right. I know that there is a difference between treating one’s children as property in the marriage market and treating children as ‘property’ by ‘buying’ them ‘womb-space’ in India. But, they are both equally appalling actions to me.

  18. I accept that you do things differently in OZ but I would also suggest that there is no clear evidence in this particular matter that you do them any better than us over here.

    Did I say that?

    I apologise unreservedly to all Charioteers for having the temerity to express my opinion. Please leave a bottle of scotch and a revolver in my study, Carruthers, I know what has to be done.

  21. I been trying to arrange my next marriage for years …. Tested many but none has yet passed my testing procedures

    a) Must be a good cook
    b) Must be wild in bed
    c) Must be extremely good looking
    d) Must be smart
    e) Must be good dog washer and feeder

    Unfortunately they all pass D) and shoot through on me as soon as I ask for either B) or E) 😦

  22. Araminta :

    Bearsy.

    Yes, but your example makes my point, and this is exactly what is happening now in the UK as well. My daughter has a friend she met at university who is is now an extremely high-powered city lawyer.
    Her family are Sikh, and her choice of husband, who was of a higher caste, and I cannot remember the details, caused immense ructions with both families who disapproved of the marriage.

    They consented eventually, with reasonably good grace, but the “children” both graduates and lawyers did not give in to their parents.

    No, we don’t suppress our own customs at all, in the UK, the last Government may well have excelled in positive discrimination, but we are fairly tolerant but not entirely stupid.

    I know of a young couple. The man, surnamed Patel, always said that it was the Indian tradition that Patels only marry Patels and there was no way around that. Then he fell in love with a Filipina and they are engaged to marry. Her name, by the way, is NOT Patel.

  23. Bearsy :

    Incidentally, Araminta, here’s a tale with a different slant –

    A close colleague of mine, of Chinese ethnicity, spoke three Chinese languages fluently, as well as English and Indonesian. He and his wife tried very hard to bring their son up to be bilingual in English and Mandarin. But the son rejected Mandarin from an early age, saying, “Dad, we’re Aussies; I speak English at school and with my mates – I don’t want to speak Mandarin.”

    All was well until the lad reached 18 or 19 when he fell in love with a girl – who was of similar ethnicity but she was bilingual and her family spoke only Mandarin at home. All of a sudden he was pleading with Mum and Dad to be taught – he went off to night school, too, but his language framework had been cast in concrete and although he now speaks Mandarin quite fluently, it’s with a terrible Aussie accent that causes much mirth with his new wife’s family.

    Some Chinese friends of mine are attempting to teach me their dominant tongues — some Mandarin, some Cantonese. My Mandarin is usually understandable, though with an atrocious German accent and my Cantonese is unrecognisable. That is why I stick with Japanese, a Japanese with an atrocious accent.

  24. Very interesting and civilised discussion. I think you know Boadicea where I stand on this. We have discussed this before and you have expressed your very firm opinion to me as you do here. Araminta and coldwaterjohn have made the points that I would have made here, so no need to repeat.

    I am glad Australian judiciary has declared invalid an arranged marriage that takes place under threat of violence, in other words, forced marriage. I am also glad the judge stopped there and did not go further 🙂

  25. Force and/or arranged marriages are not only illegal in Australia, they are also immoral, what they imply is that a mother or a father somehow have a right to determine a child’s entire future for the rest of their lives. Such ideals belong back in the stone age.

  26. Donald

    I think you are wrong there. I’ve had a quick search, but this seems to imply that arranged marriages are not illegal in Oz:

    Marriage in Australia is acceptable for men and women over the age of 18 years. Arranged marriages are less common but still acceptable, as long as both people are over the age of 18 years and willing partners. If a person is already married, they may not marry another person. Being married to more than one person at a time is illegal.

    http://www.bn.tafe.qld.gov.au/international/life/laws.html

    It’s very clear that Oz does not recognise the right of anyone to have more than one spouse.

  28. You’re right Boadicea, I miss-worded my comment, what I meant is that it is illegal for parents to arrange the marriage of their underage children or to send them overseas for such marriages. It does happen though 😦

    BUT …….. (ominous music)

    I know of two Muslims who have been allowed by the Australian government to have more than one wife, both cases made legal history in Australia back in the 80s because they were fought on the grounds of freedom of religion and the women concerned were all for it 😦

  29. Donald

    I know of two Muslims who have been allowed by the Australian government to have more than one wife, both cases made legal history in Australia back in the 80s because they were fought on the grounds of freedom of religion and the women concerned were all for it.

    You’ve just spoilt my day, my week, my month and my year. 😦

  30. Boadicea – I knew it would … but I swear on my life it is true. They were very extraordinary cases though because they were fought by Muslims who were extremely rich, Multi-millionaires both of them.

    The government won only one concession … that the wives be kept in different states, for one guy he had to have a wife in Sydney and the other in Melbourne.

    I’m afraid I’ve totally forgotten everything about the second guy’s court case. I’ll look them up for you. (just to make you smile) 🙂

  32. ‘I’d like this to go further, and and make all arranged marriages illegal. ‘

    It could be finished in a stroke were it to acquire the penalty of immediate revocation of citizenship and repatriation to country of ancestral origin. They only do it to get more wogs in; the payments, sorry, ‘dowry’ seems to vastly inflate with the right of residency in a (what was) civilised white country.

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