Let us not forget the children of Beslan, killed in a muslim terrorist attack 6 years ago yesterday. And in seven days time it is, of course, the 9th of September. Just two examples of the numberless violent attacks carried out by muslim terrorists across the world. Just this month, five hundred and fifty-five people have been killed by muslim terrorists.
Beslan
It is islam that produces the terrorists. It is islam that produces terrorists who intentionally target ordinary people, and, as in the case of the Beslan attack, children in particular, where 186 out of 334 deaths were minors. It is islam which reduces women to objects, suppresses the maternal influence in family and society by segregating ans excluding women and produces the psychological imbalance muslim men that breeds the over-inflated male ego – the ‘male honour’ that leads to honour killings and to the propensity to externalise the frustrations bred by such an imbalance into the super-sensitivity to insult and offence seen in the smallest perceived slight.
It is islam, with its insistence on submission to the will of allah* that produces the absolute intolerance of all other organised superstitions and, particularly, secular government systems. It is islam which demands that muslims segregate themselves from unbelievers and refuses to admit any imperfections in its belief and governance systems, or that any fault in its conflict with the rest of the world – not just the ‘West’ – could possibly lie within islam itself. It is islam that fuels conflict. and islamic aggression that produces misery for millions across the Globe.
And it is this that we encourage by not confronting islam when muslims import such attitudes into the cultures to which they migrate in their efforts to escape the shitholes that islamic government, or influence in government produces.
Boadicea's Chariot 
They are certainly very productive – if that’s the right word.
(I still have trouble working out these American style dates)
Bunch of rotters.
I was driving from Dublin to Belfast 6 years ago, stopped in a small town and they had a remembrance book for the Beslan victims in their town hall. I was delighted that although I was miles from home I had an opportunity to show my utter disgust at the barbaric behaviour of these scum and at least show solidarity and sympathy with the victims and survivors.
Thanks for the reminder
Bravo, of course you’re right but your poicy of confrontation would also apply (eg) to all Irish people who would like a single Irish state, including those in Boston, Mass., wouldn’t it? The separatists known sometimes as IRA are still bombing.
Janus, I’m talking about the cultural confrontation here – which was a part of the campaign against the terrorists in NI, and, btw, the terrorists there did not deliberately, (apart from a short and counterproductive spate of bombings on the mainland in the mid-70’s) target ‘civilians’ – even the Droppin’ Well bombing, contemptible as it was, had a consistent, if twisted, logic behind it.
The conflation with and confusion between current islamic aggression and the IRA, Shining Path, ETA and all the rest is part of the problem. Islam is a nasty, oppressive, repressive, un-enlightened superstitious system that produces nothing but damaged individuals because of the very nature of its teaching.
By confrontation I mean telling muslims extremely firmly that, if they come, for example to the UK, then they must conform in all matters civil and social to the norms of the society they aspire to be a part of – if they don’t have such aspirations, why then, do they come in such numbers?
What people do in the privacy or their homes of places of superstitious gathering is sod all to do with me or any government, so long as it is within the law. Pandering to superstitious prejudice in breach of the law of the land and suppressing one’s own cultural values in deference to those that are alien and downright illegal is, however, another matter entirely.
I have said it countless times. IT is not religion but man’s interpretation and actions in the name of religion that is the problem.
The Catholics of Northern Ireland were no better than the Muslim bombers of 9/11 or any other such action.
I do however believe that Islam and it’s teachings are seriously flawed and very very dangerous. And as Bravo says, if they come here (or other places) then they must conform to our ways or stay away. But then I say this about anyone, including the ignorant Brits that move to Greece, Spain or wherever and do not learn the language or integrate with locals.
I am as against the spread of Islam as anybody. However, if in the event there was a strong moral justification for a cause, supporters of that cause employed tactics that in the long run achieved their goal and at at the same time prevented a greater loss of life would those tactics be justified? Do the ends ever justify the means?
Supposing during the war, Jews had employed terrorist tactics to bring awareness to the fact that they were being slaughtered in concentration camps? Would that be justified? Supposing a group of rebels decided that Mugabe needed to be assassinated but that the only opportunity they would have would be during a visit to a school. Would the ‘collateral’ loss of life of one child justify the operation? How about two? How about 22?
The great Rhodesian hero, Bomber Harris, ordered the bombing of Dresden for which he was subsequently pilloried and quite frankly treated abominably. President Truman ordered the bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima for which he was applauded, though the effects were more catastrophic. Churchill is supposed to have failed to order the evacuation of Coventry despite the fact that he knew it was to be bombed.
As for a ‘legal’ war, it is well known that both sides in every conflict commit atrocities that they would not wish to be made public, the British Army in Ireland, being no exception.
In any event, who is innocent in a democracy?
Sipu. Perfect example of what I was talking about to Janus. Address anything except the issue at hand. Do not address the current problem, talk about other things instead. What you write here is exactly, exactly, why muslims will continue to kill people, to oppress women, to distort the personalities of their young men and to remain rooted in failing societies. I repeat, ‘Just this month, five hundred and fifty-five people have been killed by muslim terrorists,’ and for no reason other than islam.
PS. Terrorism is never justified, your examples are fatuous.
Excuse me, ad hom removed I stated that I was against the spread of Islam and therefore one can conclude that I endorse your sentiment that there is no moral justification for those terrorist acts. What were you expecting from a post like that? You stated that it was the anniversary of the Beslan bombing. Fine, we can pause to remember that event. But then you went on to make an attack on Islam and terrorism. Fine too, but that calls for a debate. And a debate is what I was offering. Who the hell are you to state that my examples are fatuous and that terrorism is never justified? To what extent have you suffered at the hands of oppressive regimes?
Last sentence removed – Boa
They are fatuous examples of the reason why islam is not confronted. They are fatuous because, ‘I endorse your sentiment that there is no moral justification for those terrorist acts’ but you go on to confuse the issue with examples that bear no resemblance to the root causes of islamic terrorism which lie within islam itself. They are fatuous because it is exactly this confusion that hinders the development of arguments that will urge muslims to look at their own problems and, maybe, start to deal with them instead of blaming anyone other than themselves. The debate you offer in your comment is worthless precisely because it does not address the issues, but confuses them. I have removed the intemperate insult from the end of your comment – because it is my post, and I can.
There is a great difference between ‘terrorists’ who are fighting to free their home lands from what they perceive as ‘evil’, ‘unlawful’ or oppressive regimes and those who are trying to impose their oppressive, alien cultures on free nations.
Was it you or was it me, Bravo!
There is no difference between terrorists of any flavour – terrorists are terrorists.
Boa got in first, thanks.
Our comments are crossing, Boa – it was you š
Bravo, as far as I’m concerned they can kill each other… as long as it is not in the UK.
What concerns me is the way things are going, it’s only a matter of time before we see muslims turn on each other, as we saw this week, Amadiyya’s have been targeted , probably because they were the Muslims who ran a recent London bus proselytising program. Drawing attention to themselves.
All muslims should of course conform to our ways, but, there is an anomaly within the concession of practicing their religion. The fault lies in definition of that particular ‘religion’.
Frankly, if you took away the prayers mainstream Islam would probably be outlawed as a terrorist organisation, but they are told they have ‘freedom to practice their religion’ in the UK, they are also told they must adhere to the law of the land.
Has no one realised there’s a conflict there ? Sharia is said to be gods law:
“Muslims believe all Sharia is derived from two primary sources, the divine revelations set forth in the Qur’an, and the sayings and example set by the Islamic Prophet Muhammad in the Sunnah.”
So which is it to be Sharia law or English law ? Freedom of religion or not ? If Muslims come to live in the UK, perhaps they should be taught English Islam, which would remove all legal aspects of their type of Islam. [ said with tongue in cheek] I believe
Child brides, forced marriage, polygamy, wife beating/stoning/lashing all seen as illegal & being top of the list, Remember these are legal within Islam …. [ freedom of religion] but illegal in English law.
Whoever allows Islam to flourish in the UK, allows these evils.
Also, English education where the Koran can only be taught outside school hours,none of this Koranic learning for hours a day. I believe that only the religion OF THE LAND should be taught in schools as a ‘subject’ not a faith.
If government does not have the courage to act on this immediately then it’s only a matter of time before the killings / terrorism /muslim on muslim starts in the UK.
Especially if one sect feels another is getting preferential treatment.
My insult certainly was not intemperate, nor for that matter was it an insult. Of course you have the right to remove what you wish and of course I anticipated that you would, though you do not have the decency to temper your own language or tone. Your remarks were rude and arrogant and uncalled for, regardless of whether or not you agree or disagree with my own post which was written in the form of a question for debate rather than a statement of fact.
I see that Boa seems to offer a justification for terrorism if it is to free one’s homeland from an evil oppressor as was the case with the Zionists in Palestine when Menachim Begin, Prime Minister and Nobel Laureate, blew up the King David Hotel killing 90 or so innocent people.
Your comment 11 is utter nonsense. There are three issues here, where perhaps you meant there only to be one. They are Islam, terrorism and Islamic-terrorism. You made it three by stating, ‘It is islam that produces the terrorists.’ The implication there is that terrorism per se is wrong and therefore Islam is wrong. You may believe that Islam is wrong, whatever is meant by wrong. The fact that I happen to agree with you, does not mean that we are right, it just means that it is an opinion with which millions disagree. By extrapolation therefore, I concur that Islamic terrorism is wrong. However, it leaves open to debate the question of terrorism as a means to an end. In that regard, I am open to debate and it would appear that I am not alone in that respect.
If you wish to call an end to any unpleasantness may I suggest that you apologise for calling my remarks fatuous. I am quite prepared to bury the hatchet. After all, I was raised with the Christian ethic of forgiving one’s enemies.
Sipu. You still confuse the issue. The example you give is, once more, misdirected. The King David Hotel was the Headquarters of the British Mandatory Authority. Look at the list of atrocities at the top of the post. Failure to recognise the difference in kind between targetted attacks on ‘your oppressors’ and terrorist attacks on soft targets of opportunity is thoroughly reprehensible as is confusing the two and therefore confusing the debate.
Muslims are killing people, and in particular, other muslims, (see the list, again,)for no other reason than islam, we do ourselves, and muslims, a disservice by not requiring them to examine the roots of terroism in their own failed system.
Sipu, our comments crossed. my number 20 was in answer to your number 18.
It was not I who made three issues out of one. My point is clear*
…though perhaps it would have been clearer still had I written …’these terrorists.’
The debate is not about terrorism as a means to an end because that leads to the sterile chase-my-tail of what is terrorism.
It is my contention in this post that the isues you describe as three are one. The muslim terrorist atrocities we see on a daily, yes, daily – see the list – are rooted in the failures of islam and unless we insist that muslims address their own internal issues, they will continue, people will continue to suffer and be oppressed, states will fail and muslims will continue to flock to countries and cultures where conditions are better in ecery way than the shitholes they leave.
You are right, I apologise for describing your comment as fatuous.
I’m off for a celebratory lunch. My money is on this being the blog/post that will see this site into the 100,000 hit list. š
Nice to see you here Katie.
TTFN.
How nice… thank -you Tocino. Have a delicious over indulgent lunch . š
Thanks, and enjoy the rest of your day.
Yes, welcome Katie.
One of the main problems of Islam seems to be the lack of a central authority, a Pope or Patriarch or some such. There is such a mishmash of sects, each with independent imams spouting their own garbled versions of the Koran, which I suspect most of them cannot even read in the original. I do not see how such a disparate collection can “address their own internal issues”, Bravo. If we insist they try, we will only hear the standard whine of “victimisation”. I expect there is somewhere in the Koran a prohibition against killing fellow Moslems, but that doesn’t seem to have had any effect on those murderers in your list. There is no discipline, no realisation that adherence to a 7th or 8th century ideology must be amended to suit a different century, where the world has changed. Odd how Moslems seem willing to accept some parts of our western 21st century, such as planes and mobile phones, for their own murderous purposes, yet insist on clinging to other older ideas too. There seems no way to get the inconsistency of this through to them.
Thanks Bravo.
Hello Sheona, there are texts which say killing another muslim is wrong, but, different sects are seen by them, as non muslims.
I cannot see how this problem can be solved, other than Islam itself being eradicated. It’s no good saying the Koran must be rewritten because old grievances would never be forgotten. A Caliphate could never oversee all sects & splinter groups, they would end up for one of each, such is the depth of their disagreements. What say you Bravo ?
Bravo.
You have summed up my attitude exactly – I do not have a problem (well too much of a problem!) with resistance to āevilā, āunlawfulā or oppressive regimes in the form of attacking the representatives of those regimes. I do have a problem with attacks on those who do not have the power to change matters. I’m a little tired of hearing that there are no ‘innocents’ in a ‘democracy’. Most so-called democracies give their people a one-off opportunity every few years to vote in a tyranny. The Iraq War is a prime example of where the majority of people in both the UK and Australian democracies did not want to go to war and their leaders ignored the people they were supposed to represent.
I’m not sure I agree with you Katie that it is OK for Muslims to kill each other elsewhere – after all many of those ‘persecuted’ in this way then seek asylum in the West and expect to be accommodated, with all their ‘odd’ beliefs here….
Sheona.
The fundamentalists of whatever creed are as bad as each other – they all adhere to the ramblings of centuries ago written in ‘holy’ books and refuse to change their opinion in the light of changed conditions.
I’d quite like to see islam disappear from the face of the earth, but I fear I shall have a long wait.
Hello Boadicea, well yes that is what’s happened & our own government has to take some responsibility for that. But I cannot understand why we are so worried about fighting abroad when a frightening scenario is building at home.
I don’t know if you’ve seen Andrew Gilligan’s blog ? He has chartered the course of one extremist Rahman, who has now gained a position where he is in charge a 1 billion budget/ council.
By cheating of course, but he’s achieved his ambition after being knocked back on previous occasions……….. the point is, they do not give up or back down !
Read what Badger has just written, he who lives amongst these people.
The truly worrying thing is, we haven’t clue on how to solve this gathering threat, nor do we have anyone willing to, in government.
http://my.telegraph.co.uk/abdulmuhd/amuhd/125/what-about-tower-hamlet/
Alarm Red Lights Sirens – no links to the old ruins please! (Hi, Bubs!)
Oooer, hello Janus, good to see you are alive & kicking [ ?]
Sorry about that, but it was relevant, so I’ll change it to link with Gilligan instead then:
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/andrewgilligan/100052317/fundamentalists-using-sham-labour-members-to-take-control-of-1-billion-council/
Sheona, Katie, I’m not at all sure that a central authority would make any difference, any old book of myths is subject, as Rick noted, to interpretation – the word of god is not the word of god but the words of men. The koran is qualitatively different to, for example, the christian bible in that it is not a collection of myths but, supposedly, a single myth purporting to be the direct word of god as revealed to one man. (And, if you believe that, I do a nice line in second-hand battleships, one owner, mileage guaranteed…)
The problem is the basic precepts which, firstly, insist that submission is the be-all and end all of a person’s life, secondly, segregate people into into ‘us’ and ‘them,’ with the ‘them,’ being inferior in all aspects to the ‘us,’ and, thirdly, further segregate the ‘us’ by gender so that the male muslim is elevated to a position where social development is severely restricted. This stunted social development is the root of the problem – and the root of the reason for muslim insecurity and sense of inferiority; inferiority because the supposed perfect society of submission to the will of a mythical being is, quite clearly, inferior in practice to that of the supposedly inferior unbelievers.
The root of the problem is in islam – as practised by those who we are urged, over and over again, to see as ‘normal’ muslims.
It is my firm view that it is that practise that we must root out in our own societies – the oppression and segregation of women and the closing of islamic schools would be good places to start – in order to force muslims to consider seriously the contradictions in islam.
Tower Hamlets. Perhaps a generous assisted repatriation scheme would not ne out of the question after all.
Bugrit! ‘be’ of course.
That’s a good summation Bravo.
Closing Islamic schools would be an excellent start, get those kids educated like others in the country,let them learn academic subjects instead of wasting valuable time & energy learning to recite something in a language they will never understand, that will be of far more beneficial to the country.
But … the fight will be massive. Cries of Islamophobia & persecution would have to be ignored. Would that then lead to violence, yes, in my opinion most definitely, however I see no option but to take it on, if we are to survive..
As for TH, too late, we’ve lost it, mainly to Bangladeshes, estimated in total around Britain, half a million 500,000 & growing, that’s a lot of repatriations !
So Beslan was September & of course 9/11……….Mumbai was in November, should we be worried that we are now in September ?
I see we are agreed Sipu, we cannot win this with Christian values. I feel we are going into battle with an opponent who has all the skills , but our hands tied behind our backs.
The weakest spot of Islam, as I see it Bravo, is the book of myths which is in fact a hodgepodge of beliefs taken from Judaism and Christianity, as well as other older religions perhaps. This is the first evidence of the inferiority the Moslems feel and as you rightly say can be used by all the different sects to back up their own superstitions.
Boadicea, it’s true that the fundamentalists, like the Wee Frees in Scotland, stick to old beliefs and traditions. It seems to be just the Moslems who pick and choose which bits of the modern world they will use for their own purposes. Again there must be this feeling of inferiority that it is the west that has invented jet engines and so on.
Katie, you’re absolutely right about Moslem schools. I believe this is the problem in Pakistan. Madrassahs have produced thousands of unemployable boys, who are easy prey for extremist recruiting agents.
I think repatriation will have to be considered. In a TV programme the other night about car crime, all those arrested and charged were immigrants – Asian, Nigerian, Somali. All driving illegally or with dodgy documents, to the danger of other road users and at the expense of other insured motorists. For what reason should we allow such criminals to remain in Britain, like the Asian gang deliberately causing car accidents to make insurance claims? I began to feel Sarkozy is getting it right. Those Moslems found guilty of terrorist acts or “honour killings” are not part of British society and don’t want to be. We need a good clean-out.
By the way, Bravo, do you do any of your battleships in pink?
The more that kill each other anywhere is all for the good.
Roll on more inter-sect strife, floods, famines anything that gets rid of a few!
Preferably there, not here.
I do wish the do-gooders would leave them to their Malthusian fate.
It will save us having to kill them later!
Because that is where it is going to end up through our own stupidity.
Lunacy letting them in in the first place, breeding like flies.
We all seem to know the answers but none of us know who will dare do anything.
Whoever it is,be it a politician or someone else who has the courage to start a serious & convincing movement to claim back the country.
What would be the qualities needed ? A clean background,charismatic character,determination,courage, a calm persona & most of all a patriot. Whoever it is, they are damned if they do & damned if they don’t.
True, the BNP have such a mucky low class lot of individuals running the show, policies fine people aren’t!
Tina, did you hear that Farage has become leader of UKIP again, could he be the one ?
What was it like 40 years ago then? Or 150 years ago? Why are talking about it so much after the cold war ended?
Yes, we are ordered to fight (and kill within a war) when the country is assulted.
We have talked about them to death (and it seems none of us moved a jot) but I did not want this to pass without me saying something about.
It’s a famous and joke in Turkey. “BektaÅi”s are a Sofi cult who are famous for drinking. There are many jokes about them. Here is the joke:
When BektaÅi is asked whey he does not pray daily altouh it is ordered.
He says in Quran it says -“Approach not prayers”.
-“Why aren’t you reading the verse in full?” (which is “Approach not prayers with a mind befogged, until ye can understand all that ye say,- nor in a state of ceremonial impurity except when you are passing by (through the mosque), until after washing your whole body”)
He says: “Well I’m not a hafiz” (hafiz; person who memorize all the quran)
As we all know, almost anyone can draw the conclusion he likes from Quran. (Even Elle can). And most of the muslims are ignorant, not only in general, about their religion as well. Add poverty and the occupation of lands to the equation.
Middleeast, Jerusalem in particular had the most peaceful time under the reign of Ottomans.
On a lighter note, I was looking up for a trasnlation of the joke I (tried to) tell above. Came across more of the jokes, here is three that made me laugh.
Once a Bektashi dervish entered a mosque and started to make a dua out loud, āO Allah,
I
would like you to give me a bottle of raki.ā Next to him was praying a pious Sunni who
upon hearing the request exclaimed, āDonāt you have anything other than this to ask of
God? You know very well that raki is prohibited by the Shari’ah!
āBut what should I ask for then?ā exclaim dervish candidly.
āWell,ā said the man, āyou could start by asking for Allahās forgiveness.ā
The dervish got up and called out, āArenāt people supposed to pray for what they donāt
have? As for me, I have Allahās Mercy and Compassion. But what I donāt have is a nice
bottle of raki!āĀ»
One day the Sunni friends of a Bektashi dervish insisted that he go to the mosque to
pray the Friday prayer. As he took his seat in the congregation the hodja spotted him.
Wanting to embarrass the dervish, the hodja began to lecture on the evils of alcohol. He
began describing in detail all of the natural and religious reasons why drinking any
alcohol at all is bad. To prove a point that even animals wonāt drink liquor the hodja
asks āIf you put a bucket of water and a bucket of raki in front of a donkey, which will it
drink?ā
Someone in the crowd answered, āThe water of course.ā
āWhy so?ā enquired the hodja.
Unable to hold himself, the Bektashi exclaimed āWhy so? Because itās a donkey!ā
A Bektashi was in a mosque one day listening to the hodja give a sermon. He was half
asleep when the hodja began talking about the pure virgins that awaited the faithful in
heaven.
When he heard the word heaven, the Bektashi came to himself and asked the hodja
excitedly
” Hodja efendi will wine and raki be served to the faithful in heaven?”
The hodja became furious and shouted back,
” You pagan, what do you think heaven is… a tavern?!”
The Bektashi replied likewise,
” Hah! What do you think heaven is… a whorehouse?!”
More here : http://www.bektashi.net/beliefs-jokes1.html
You will see that it is a critisim of “literally taking”, view of Islam. Indeed they have a name “ham softa” meaning raw wannabe.
The long decline of the Ottoman Empire is chronicled, briefly here:
http://www.turizm.net/turkey/history/ottoman3.html (A Turkish site.)
Nothing to do with the point of the post. And the reason I am talking about muslims killing muslims is starkly laid out in the list at the top of the page.