Just an observation. In the real world, common sense, experience and an ability to see both sides of the problem are applauded; in the cyber-world this is manifestly not so. Hatred, fear and the ability to trawl the internet are all that is required. Rational, logical debate is rarely the result of encounters with racists and Islamaphobics. The attempts to discredit the blogger, rather than the argument are hardly admirable tactics either. It does not add much creditability or weight to their limited view of the world.
Perhaps an excellent post by Bravo22 may provide some solutions.
It’s not a result of not having an opinion, it is not sitting on the fence, it may be quite an intelligent way of looking at things.
Remember that understanding how the opposition thinks is an essential factor in countering their objections.
Inspired by Sipu and Bravo, and sorry, it is a repeat, with appropriate apologies if you have seen it before.
Boadicea's Chariot 
Hi ara. Ths looks interesting, but am being unceremoniously hauled from laptop (sob!) Will be back for a proper look later 😉
Ah, Cat calls, Isobel and of course you must obey. He’s the boss, and quite right too. 🙂
It’s Claire! But yes, being hauled off, metaphorically speaking of course. I’m married to a French man, not a cave man 😉
Oh, hell, I keep doing this, my apologies to both. You are not in the least bit alike but I did have a glass of wine; it’s Friday, is my excuse. 🙂
Looking back Araminta, I’m just thinking, what did we change? Did we change?
Hello Levent: I have changed, but I admit I have changed nothing. I’m not sure I really intended to change anyone’s opinion though; merely to express my own.
Fortunately, my education included learning to play ‘devil’s advocate’ – it helps to appreciate that others may have a different opinion on what I take as ‘fact’.
Ara; this is certainly very thought provoking. And Bravo – beautifully put.
I’m a bit of a wind up merchant at times over on MyT; just for the hell of it at times. But I’ve never been scared of playing devil’s advocate, nor of being proved wrong.
Yes, Boadicea; mine too. Must find my post as to the difference between “fact” and opinion! 🙂
Claire: nothing wrong with that; in fact, it is the essence of debate. It is not necessary, in my opinion to change people’s minds, but just possibly to make them aware that there is another way of looking at things.
Very difficult/impossible to put anything new on this post that hasn’t already been said before. Interesting to look at the original blog though and make a guess at the deleted comments.
The difficulty with that is that many people ‘identify’ themselves with their opinions and beliefs, and if they are forced to question those opinions and beliefs they feel like they are losing part of what makes them them. Sorry rather clumsily worded – I hope you get what I mean. 🙂
Tocino: I didn’t revisit the original post, but perhaps I should. 🙂
Boadicea: I understand exactly where you are coming from, but I don’t understand why this is so. Granted as we grow older we tend to have more experience of life, which predisposes us to form our views on many things, but surely we can still learn and possibly redefine our “realities” in the light of more information.
It should be a constant learning curve, in my opinion. How can one just stop?
It’s a ‘personality thing’ – I reckon. Some people see no reason to question what they are sure they already know… after all they know they are right! Others are always looking at the world with ‘new’ eyes…
Boa; good point. A lot of people do get very worked up; it doesn’t bother me. One of the lessons of this whole blogging thing, especially on MyT, is learning to argue a point without totally losing your head, if you get my meaning.
Since 1976 when I left my parent Regiment to Join the Intelligence Corps of the British Army, my job has been, at bottom, to find out what is happening, analyse what it means, and explain it to somebody. I live and die by the result – in three periods of my life, literally, or, if not me, somebody else. (Nowadays, of course, if I get it wrong, the result is not terminal, I just don’t get paid.)
Understanding the other point of view is vital in this process so that intentions may be understood and, if it affects one’s own intentions, or harms one’s own conditions, corrective measures may be devised.
The greatest failure in understanding the other point of view is to assume that the other is arriving at that point of view on the same basis that you are, that the patterns of thought, and even the basic way of looking at things, the Weltanshauung is contiguous with one’s own. If you do this, you situate the assessment, rather than assessing the situation, and your analysis will be flawed.
To understand, you must see what is happening then set it in context – not your context, but the other. Only once that is done, can something be analysed against one’s own point of view.
My apologies for screwing up the emphasis.
Levent – Except for blogs written in jest, I have never written my blogs for the bloggers, I see the comments section only as a way of receiving criticism from others who like me, also write blogs.
But my blogs have never been intended for the members, as an example one of my last few blogs received 140 odd comments, roughly half of them criticized my blog or kept within the topic but over 1000 people read it.
It is these 1000 readers who interest me, I happen to know there is only about 50 to 70 regular members who read my blogs but I find it fascinating that so many people take so much as a minute of their time to read whatever I’ve written on.
I wrote a blog on ICONS once, it received about 200 comments but total readership run in the thousands and if I can influence just 2 of them … and they influence 2 each …. so yes, if you are willing to write then you can make changes 🙂
The comments section means nothing if you really want to make changes, influence people or to just have your say. There is only about 40 bloggers here yet there are over 32,000 hits. Write for them.
Thanks Bravo.
The Weltanschauung explanation nails it. Being an analyst, you are hardwired to approach the world of opinion this way.
But for most people, their hard wiring is “fact” and so it becomes reality in the assessment of life and daily issues.
So in order to create a better world we need to change this wiring.
Care to write the manual for that ? 🙂
I rather think that Sun Tzu was the first to point that out, or the first to have been recorded as saying it, about 2,300 years ago. Well before German was invented. C’mon Bravo, let’s have it in Mandarin! 😀
Rainer. First thing we have to do is get the schiools back on track – if you can’t read properly, you cannot think, and if you can’t write fluently, you cnnganise your thoughts. Cut out all the PC crap and get back to teaching the three r’s. There are plenty of books out there. I taught my children by always answering a question with a question: ‘Daddy, why is the sky blue?’ ‘Well, why do you think it’s blue?’ Question, question, question! Start from there 🙂
Bearsy, don’t get me started on Sun Zi, I’ll be here all day.
It’s easy, by the way, to toss around labels like ‘racist’ and ‘islamophobe. Here’s an experiment: the next time you are ‘munching with muslims,’ or commenting on how polite some nice young muslim men are, try engaging them in conversation about ‘The female eunuch,’ women burning their bras, (burqas?), tasting their own menstrual fluids, and like that. Really examine the ‘other’ point of view, instead of assuming. You may find it illuminating.
Bravo.
Sorry, but I don’t fully agree with that. Yes, the schooiling has to be right and proper, but does good spelling and grammar teach people how to think ?
The modern world is teaching us to just believe what we see and the pursuit of leisure and trivia. Its profitable, for some.
As to the questioning of everything, what you taught your children, NOW THAT is what brings about intelligence and understanding. Being post war German it was my teachers prerogative to drum that into us, for very good reasons as you know. Many of them, by the way, were socialists.
I cut you some slack on your opinions of Muslims, by personal experience and observation. But then again, and here we come to the point of this post, I try to understand and find a middle ground, not for mine, but for their sake.
IS,
I’m not sure I get your point.
And Bravo your last para either.
Levent “Looking back Araminta, I’m just thinking, what did we change? Did we change?”
IS,
This morning I couldn’t remember my social number and it took me one hour to translate a paragraph. Am I making myself clear?
Levent – Yes, you are clear this time, you sound almost human 🙂
Interesting comments, thank you, everyone.
I shall return to this later, but the sun and is shining here, and I have a busy day ahead.
Must be the spring.
Bravo; inspiring and insightful; an example of your thought provoking approach to debate and discussion. This ‘questioning/learning’ approach seems to be flourishing on this site, away from the rather Comedia dell Arte/ Punch and Judy style of blogging on MyT (of which I probably am one of the main perpertrators, I hasten to add!)
Re education, I’m a traditionalist as a teacher, but do love incorporating ‘independent learning’ – one of the few positives to emerge from state education in recent years. This means that instead of just doing ‘stand and deliver’, teachers have to question very frequently to monitor progress. I love seeing my students’ faces when they’ve learned to spot inflectional suffixes, or dependent clauses within the first five minutes of the lesson!
We’re also supposed to give them time and space to work things out for themselves – I limit that to five minues; any longer and they’re talking about Vampire Diaries, or Facebook!
Rainer. Not necessarily, but, if you cannot read, then…
… is exactly what you get. Similarly, if you cannot write functionally, then you cannot organise thought properly, recapitulate accurately or draw conclusion from previous reasoning – unless you are one of the rare few blessed with an eidetic memory.
And there, exactly, is the problem. You are situating the assessment. You are assuming that your pov and the other are contiguous. The post-renaissance, social-democratic, egalitarian mindset which is a common heritage of the Western liberal democracies has no counterpart in many other parts of the World and, particularly, not in islam – vide the history of social-democratic movements in islamic countries.
PS. Rainer, do you think ‘they’ care that you’re doing it, ‘for their sake?’
Excellently put, Bravo. Your point is fundamental to any discussion on this subject. A sine qua non of constructive debate.
Claire, be happy that you don’t have to teach them perfective and imperfective variations, 7 cases, conditional objective clauses … I have to tell you, French is a piece of pipi compared to Russian – and I thought Serbian was difficult!
Back to the point, independent learning – I have no idea what that signifies, but if it is what it sounds like, what we used to call, reading around the subject, or something similar, then you have to equip your pupils with the basic tools they need to do the job, or they can’t tackle it, or am I missing the point entirely?
You’ve just made the point I was about to make Bravo. Independent learning is only of any value if one has the basic tools of good reading / comprehension and evaluation skills.
Bravo and Boa, yes, up to a point. I am very much a traditionalist when it comes to discipline and equipping pupils with the basics. When independent learning was first touted, many language, science and maths teachers tended to dismiss it as something for the essay based, navel gazing approach of say, English Literature or something. And there is a risk that independent learning can simply degenerate into what I heard someone describe as ‘f*ck off and find out’ teaching; ie, not doing your job properly at all. But I have actually found that, with the right rigour, planning and precision, when you incorporate independent learning into problem solving, or just rote learning of vocabulary – ie, with short term objectives reassessed verbally in class, it’s worth its weight in gold.
Bravo: your comment # 17 is pretty much spot on.
Now you are obviously, because of your military background and training, used to doing this in order to “win”, or prevent the “enemy” from achieving their goal, and yes, you or others live or die by such judgements.
It is equally essential to do this in others areas, for example in peace or diplomatic negotiations, or any conflict resolution process.
Many of us do not a military background, but seeing things in context and not assuming others are indeed looking at issues from a similar position is still possible.
My feeling is that this is not widely understood, hence the lack of sensible debate in some areas of cyberspace. As I have said, elsewhere, we cannot all be right, and our different experiences, education, and so forth would cause us to see things differently, and some are not skilled in evaluating the evidence that underlies their beliefs or opinions.
Claire, in the end, it comes down to good teachers. There are those who can capture the imaginayion of their pupils and inspire them, and those who can’t. We have to recognise that the purpose of education is to educate, a ‘process in which the young are handed down the experience and knowledge acquired by earlier generations*’, and equipped with the tools they need to build on that foundation, not told that ‘this is the TRUTH and all else is
heresypolitically incorrect.hat tip; Norman Tebbit, after the asterisk is me again.
Araminta, this…
and this…
…state the case precisely, with the caveat that ‘conflict resolution,’ whether grand or petty, does not necesarily involve hostility – we all do it, quite naturally, every day. The problems begin when artifical constraints are overlaid on well-developed mechanisms and such, I fear, is the cause of many of the problems we face in the UK today. This is especially the case when those constraints are based upon dogma with no evidence or experience to support it.
I agree with you there, Bravo. Older colleagues often sigh wistfully and mutter about ‘reinventing the wheel’ when things like independent learning come up in meetings. I suspect that it is something that good teachers do instinctively, without even realising it. I incorporate it consciously into my lessons, along with objective led lessons, because I find it sharpens up my lessons no end. But I also really passionate about what I do for a living, in spite of everything, so I guess that shapes my teaching as well.
Bravo: your caveat is acceptable; precisely my view.
Just a qualification; “some of us do it quite naturally everyday”, but some manifestly do not. Therein lies the problem. Dogma of whatever variety, and we are all guilty of being dogmatic about some issues, shuts down debate.
Rainer: your usual measured contribution, thank you.
“I try to understand and find a middle ground, not for mine, but for their sake.”
Actually I understand what you are getting at here. We are all going to die; fact. So why spend what little is left of one’s life waking up every morning and thinking that the Muslims are taking over? Is is akin to worrying about being run over by a bus, or being caught in a terrorist attack. Yes it may happen, but the odds are against it. If it happens, well so be it.
That is not to say that it should be condoned or dismissed, but life is dangerous, uncertain, and in the end, we leave our children to deal with it. Judging by mine, they accept this as normal, as we did, and live their lives accordingly.
Claire: I have to say, that you sound as though you are a blooming excellent teacher!
Aw thanks Ara! Don’t want to sound like I’m blowing silly own trumpet, but that was the conclusion of Ofsted at the last inspection. THat was the greatest up yours ever to my ‘orrible boss!
I was a school governor for many years, Claire, and I would employ you. Not sure that is a recommendation, you understand, but I know a little bit about the subject. 🙂
Oh that’s a nice compliment, Ara. I’ve got an interview for a full time job in a few weeks. It’s on my birthday as well!
The very best of luck, Claire, and I’m sure you will wow them.
Thanks Ara. Should have gone to bed ages ago, as usual, but my three year old has has taken up residence on the sofa after a tantrum!
Hmm, Araminta, you stray into the realm of risk perception rather than seeing the understanding another point of view. (You also conflate two different types of risk – risk generated by accident and risk generated by intent. There is an excellent paper on the perception of risk here by Prof. Paul Slovic of the University of Oregon.)
The other question, which you rather shrug off by leaving it to your children, btw is, how far do you go in trying to understand another point of view? I suggest that the answer might be until you decide that you have understood as best you can, and then pose the question. ‘Does it affect me?’ If ‘No,’ fine, draw a line and move on. If ‘Yes,’ however…
Bravo, you say :
“The post-renaissance, social-democratic, egalitarian mindset which is a common heritage of the Western liberal democracies has no counterpart in many other parts of the World and, particularly, not in Islam…”
Yes I am fully aware of this fact, and neither would I expect this. For me it is more of an attempt to build bridges. What you assume is that the other person is not willing to understand my position. In my experience most humans want to learn and improve themselves and their societies. Muslim or Hindu or Christian, it doesn’t matter.
This is where I have a problem with you and all the other active anti Islam bloggers. You are mixing violent Islam with the Muslim way of life. And don’t think I am totally ignorant about the hatred being taught in some Islamic countries. But what you are doing is fighting fire with fire.
The only way to avoid a violent confrontation between” them” and “us” is to communicate and teach. The right wing media push for the last ten years has manipulated Joe Blow into a Islamic hating unit, for political gain. They are getting us ready for war, where what we should do is get ready for a war on terrorists, not a religion or a way of life.
So for me the only way to avoid this upcoming confrontation is trying to communicate with the other side and hope they will lift their education standards and come to the same conclusion. Coming down on them with the same hatred some Imam are preaching is counterproductive.
We are all humans and wish for a peaceful life. I see the war on terrorism as real, but what all of us have been talking about is pure manipulation of the masses for someones benefit.
Bravo: yes, but I am not straying into the area of risk perception, it seems to me to be to be the next logical step. First one must understand the mindset of the “enemy”, and I am talking about the threat from terrorism here, then analyse the situation, assess the risk and take measures to counter the problem.
Now this is largely done by the governments of the countries whose citizens are at risk. As the study you offer suggests they have to take into account the perceived risk factor and the effects of “social amplification” on the population.
No, I don’t, in this instance the reality is the same: if you are dead you are dead. Terrorists kill randomly and without warning. They know death and injury will result but it is not directed at specific individuals in this country. It may be that certain groups are the targets in some instances.
But that is the whole point of their tactics; to spread terror! The horror is certainly all too real to the victims and families but the natural outrage and the attention these incidents provoke, make it difficult to do an objective risk assessment.
No I do not shrug off the question at all, but my children and their generation may well assess these issues differently. I make my own judgement as to the real risk as against the perceived risk, and whilst there is indeed a threat, it does not inhibit my actions or my life.
What you assume is that the other person is. You are assuming that the values I pointed out are universal, while stating that you know they are not – situating the assessment again.
I suggest that you will find that this turns out not invariably to be the case. Large numbers of people are more intent on preserving the status quo than on doing as you suggest, and the cultures in which this is the case are invariably linked to a strong following of organised superstition. I will quote two examples. Cyprus and Greece. I could easily quote many more without mentioning either islam or muslims.
First, it is better not to label people and, second, if you must, then it is best to get the labels right. I am not an active ant-islam blogger. I am an active pro-rationalist blogger. If you troll my posts in the other place, you will see that the main flavoour of organised superstition that they target is not, in fact, islam, it is christianity. Why? Not because I am particularly opposed to christianity per se – it is just another flavour of superstition – but because there are number of adherents of that particular flavour who insist on airing their superstition, and then complaining when it is criticised.
None of my blogs in this place have been anti-islam. They gave been anti-terrorism. It is, however, an undeniable fact that all of the terrorist groups currently operating internationally are islamic. My blogs have also been anti-discrimination and it is another fact that the great majority of instances of discrimination in the UK at the moment involve, one way or the other, islam.
As for this:
You should write a blog on that subject. I would be interested to see what evidence you assemble to justify those sweeping statements. Who, for example, are ‘they?’
Araminta,
On reflection, you are right, but……….there are no buts in this case, I concede.
Bravo
Thank you for taking the time to explain your position. You are right when you set me straight on the fact that your posts are not anti Islamic.
Maybe its just me interpreting them wrongly.
BTW. when I refer to the right wing media as “them” I am thinking of the Murdock press that has persistently flavoured its news services with anti Islamic stories for the last five years.
Look for instance on this fact; Murdock has 175 newspapers around the globe and not one objected to the rush to war in Iraq. What does that say about editorial independence and evokes a strong suspicion on my behalf that “they” are out there manipulating the masses. That this strategy has worked is evident by the flavour of the other place, and by my observation of talking to people every day.
http://live.thenation.com/doc/20070730/nichols
And furthermore, I appreciate your replies, but take it easy on the cabbie please. No need to come down so heavy, I am here to learn you know. 🙂
Rainer, not ‘heavy,’ ;painstaking.’ 🙂 I’m not sure about a ‘strategy,’ there was plaenty of oposition to Gulf War II both before and after it kicked off, though our (UK) enquiry into the circumstances seems to be turning into another establishment whitewash. Don’t take this as a defence of Murdoch and Newscorp, btw.
It seems to be slightly different in Oz, but, certainly, here in UK there is no ‘right-wing’ establishment to speak of, The two main parties are both social democratic parties of minisculely different flavours. (The Lib Dems, of course, are whatever the flavour of the month is.)
Well, I did entitle this post “So, let us have debate” and thanks to Bravo, Rainer and Claire, and the rest of the contributors, so we have! It was a interesting and informative exchange of views, in my opinion.