My Mum has joined in now. The great immigration debate, that is.
It all started innocently enough.
‘I went shopping in Liverpool,’ she said this morning.
Cue girlie talk; shopping; sales; where to find the best cut price designer dresses. Fashion talk, in a Spring-meets-recessionista kinda way. Mother daughter things.
Then she drew breath. ‘Lewis’s is shutting you know,’ she said, self importantly.
‘Oh really? ’ I said. I felt a sudden pang of nostalgia. If there was an award for the smelliest institution in Liverpool, Lewis’s Department Store would surely be a front runner, along with the Adelphi Hotel and the Philharmonic Hall.
Mum sniffed, dismissively. ‘Not surprised it’s closing though, she said, lowering her voice, conspiratorially. ‘It’s gone terrible. It was full of ’em you know.’
‘What?’ I said, wearily.
‘Well, you know, the foreign lot.’
‘So?’ I said, a little irritably. ‘Blackburn has always been like that. And it’s fine.’
‘Hmm. No it’s not,’ she said, scornfully. ‘Liverpool’s overrun with them.’
‘Don’t be daft,’ I scoffed. ‘Liverpool’s always had immigrants.’
‘Not like this!’ she snapped. ‘They’re coming here, claiming benefits and sending the money home. S’in all the papers
‘Excuse me,’ I said, feeling all hot and teenagerish. ‘But have you seen them, have you counted then arriving and heading straight for the job centre?’
‘Oh don’t be so naive…’ she argued.
‘I’m not naive!’ I said, feeling a prickle of annoyance. Just because I happen to like the people around me – yes some of them immigrants – does that make me a collaborator, a conspirator and a traitor to my country who wants to Let Undeserving Scroungers in..?
‘Humph,’ said Mum scornfully.’ You’ve no bloody idea. There’s plenty who are out to take what they can get, ’she said, in her very best don’t-you-give-me-cheek-my-girl voice.
‘Oh right. Sorry. And there are, like, no white people like that then?’ I ventured, sarcastically, before instantly regretting it.
‘Oh Claire. Don’t be stupid! ’ she snapped.
‘Fine.’
Silence. We glared at each other. I felt as if I had just been grounded. One false move and I swear she would have slapped me.
‘Well,’ I ventured. ‘Did you buy anything then…?’
And with that we were back on to dresses and face creams.
Later, in the park , surrounded by women, covered from head to foot in dark drapes, I thought about our argument. I watched the pallid, white faces outside the job centre, and almost drove into the back of a taxi; its Muslim driver beeped me. Children came and went; white, Asian, big and small; an assortment of blue and purple uniforms. The traffic growled and we waited as people came and went at the zebra crossing. Pensioners, Muslims, young women with pushchairs. I wondered. And I thought; well, who was right?
Boadicea's Chariot 
Oh Claire,
If I were a few years younger, more akin to a triangle than a beachball and not madly in love with my woman, you would be the gal for me.
Thank you for a wonderfully written piece which highlights the dangers of listening to the press and the politicos desperate to score votes.
It is not all sweetness and light of course, beloved works in the NHS and she deals with many health migrants who come here because they know we will not turn them away. It would chill you to the bone if you knew how much resources are squandered while these folk evade treatment in order to stay in the country.
I am wholly against flood immigration but the legal migrants we have are welcome in my view.
By way of a giggle and some prophetic humour from eons ago have a gander at this.
Ferret, sweetie; thanks for your comments. I was going to put it up on MyT but then thought better of it. Feather and tar and all that.
Hilarious clip by the way. Although he is a very camp politician 😉
My mum’s still got the hump. Easter weekend could be off now… (;
Hello Claire, wonderful post, I really enjoyed ready this. I too have been in the same position having had similar conversations with my late Mother. I echo Ferrets comment, and Ferret, that video clip is a giggle.
Funny old world, Claire. Great post.
Hello Claire
I’ve inserted a ‘more’ function (page break) for you. If you have a look at the front page the ‘more’ function reduces whats visible and encourages the reader to open the blog and perhaps leave a comment.
If you edit your post, you will be able to see what I’ve done, delete it and reinsert it elsewhere if you so wish!
You can learn about the ‘more’ function in the FAQ’s
(by the way, there is no auto smiley ‘(;’ this page gives you a comprehensive list)
🙂
Well, now, after a little bit of research, I reckon you ought to listen to your Mum a bit more, young Claire.
You will not that, apart from Indian households, the number of ‘Workless Households’ in all other ethnic groups is about double that in the white ethnic group – which, of course, would also include (most,) immigrants from EU countries,Australia, NZ, the US etc.
Office for National Statistics, Social Trends, No 38 2008 Edition.
Copy here: http://go.avforums.com/?id=223X354&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.statistics.gov.uk%2Fdownloads%2Ftheme_social%2FSocial_Trends38%2FSocial_Trends_38.pdf
Evening Claire, excellent post, and this conversation perfectly illustrates the two sides on the Great Debate, and as the Furry One points out, the power of the media to influence events.
I had a very similar conversation some years ago with One who shall Remain Nameless but let us just say she had similar views to your mother, but didn’t hail from my side of the family. Anyway, in the village in which she lived, the inhabitants who were obviously responsible for all the crime, drug taking and general mayhem were not white! Since these “troublemakers” numbered but three, they must have been exceedingly busy, what with running the local Indian takeaway an’ all!
Hello, TheNewWatcher, chuckle! But welcome anyway. 😉
I tend to side with your view, Claire. It’s not that I know the facts; I just know that when anyone generalises about any group of people then they are almost invariably wrong in their conclusions. This is because people are unique individuals and do not readily fit classification.
Claire -You may not know this, but I am an endangered species – a Scouse wolf.
With its long maritmme history, Liverpool is home to the oldest Chinese and African communities in Europe, and Chinatown boasts the biggest Chinese arch outside mainland China. The first mosque in the country was built in Liverpool and today more than 60 languages are spoken in the city. There were never any racial problems, Toxteth riots aside, and the safest (and best) place to leave your car and dine remains Chinatown. Your Mum is right.
Or so it was.
OZ
Bravo … ‘Well, now, after a little bit of research, I reckon you ought to listen to your Mum a bit more, young Claire.’
But surely Claire is far closer to the truth than her mum, according to the table you posted? Her mum said ‘They’re coming here, claiming benefits and sending the money home.’ Your table shows that workless households are a small minority (less than or equal to a quarter) in every ethnic group.
So the vast majority of ‘immigrant’ households include at least one worker. And the Chinese (not the usual scapegoats) have the highest percentage of workless households (still only a quarter).
Well now, I reckon you should learn to interpret statistics a bit better, old Bravo.
I think it’s great that Claire is so even-handed (I would have said ‘level-headed’, but that’s only useful for carrying trays) that she can post a story like this, which gives both sides of the argument in such an easily understandable way, without it being distorted by ‘writer’s bias’. Thanks Claire, it’s a good read whichever side of the fence one sits on.
I am also gratified that Claire felt it would receive proper attention here rather than the heaps of abusive comments which would undoubtedly result from publication on the Dark Side. And she was right!
Welcome Newwatcher,
I make no bones of my silhouette.
You however seem to be ashamed of yourself. Go figure. 🙂
Your mother sounds an eminently sensible woman.
So does Claire; so it may come down to a difference of perception and attitudes as do many things.
Good post Claire. Very good.
Hello folks; thank you for the responses; very varied and interesting to see where people fall on this one.
Bravo; Brendano; thanks. I’m not sure if this post made it clear, but I haven’t totally made my mind up, even though I am quite liberal. I find living in Blackburn has opened my eyes in a similar way to living in France, years ago. And I love seeing different nationalities and cultures living on top of one another. But very recently, what with the financial crisis, and jobs going left right and centre, I have started to question the existing status quo a bit.
Brendano; thanks as well.
Hi Ara; Pseu; thanks for your comments, very uplifting as ever 😉 I don’t think Mum and I will ever agree on this one, but at least we can still have a civil conversation afterwards.
In my husband’s family, they have heated arguments about this sort of thing around the dinner table all the time. But that’s the French for you. A few years ago when I was pregnant, I remember being utterly gobsmacked by how much they were yelling at each other over all that business of the Paris riots. The older ones were saying it was the fault of the immigrants for being so violent; the younger ones were saying that social deprivation, exclusion and racism were the cause. Huge row over Boxing Day dinner. Then they just, switched topics and all had dessert and champagne… 😉
Except, well, they don’t do Boxing day there. Just, well, big dinners…
Bearsy; thanks as well. Nice to be appreciated and to be able to post summat without all hell breaking loose 😉 I’m reserving MyT strictly for creative writng comps and for times when I feel like indulging in the odd hissy fit/squabble 😉
OZ; now then. Allow me to assess your scousability rating. HOw many times a day do you say ‘like’? How often do you inadvertently cause offence among non scouse acquaintances by giving them a huge shove with your left elbow and grinning innanely, rather than just smiling sweetly like normal people? Have you ever carried a bag of chips on your head? And do you know every last word of the leaving of Liverpool…?
And thank you Val, Tambman, New Watcher..Mother daugher relationships.. Twas ever thus, methinks. Good job I have two sisters to share the flak every now and then. 😉
Soutie; your inauspicious presence is a blessing, mate 😉
Conversations with my family in the UK.
Mother: ‘You know, if I lived in some tin-pot village in a poor country I’d be the first on the boat to go somewhere better. You really can’t blame people for seeing that there are places where they don’t have to live in poverty and for trying to get there. But, I’m not sure we can carry on just letting everyone in. It’s putting a tremendous strain on housing, education and health… but then every time I go to the hospital I wonder what we would do without them. I just wish they would try to fit in better and learn to speak English…’
Brother: ‘I’ve always been extremely tolerant, and thought how great it is that Britain has offered asylum to those in need. But there are too many here who aren’t in need… and I’m fed up with the country bending over backwards to accommodate their culture. This is Britain… it’s time to tell people to FIFO. I’m really angry that my natural tolerance has been pushed to the limit and I’m feeling like this.’
I, too, was extremely tolerant, until it came to my children’s education… then, when I realised they were missing out because of the large number of immigrants in the local schools – my tolerance expired very rapidly and I moved.
Interesting, Claire. I did mention on Bravo’s recent post that it may be a generation thing.
My daughters have occasionally looked at some of the “discussions” on this subject on MyT and shaken their heads in total disbelief at some of the viewpoints expressed. They simply don’t see it in those terms.
I suppose, it is the way we see it affecting ‘us.’ Of course it is a generation thing. We all get older though and outlooks change. I’m pleased I’m the age I am.
Araminta,
The quote capture didn’t work well. I hope you understand what I was attempting to say?
Fixed – Ed.
Claire, when my youngest daughter was at uni in L’pool, I used to take her to lunch at the Adelphi Hotel, mainly because they served real food – achange from her student diet – but also the service, despite the rundown décor, was excellent. but that was 15 years ago now……. 😦
Claire @ 22 – Scousability rating? Well, I have made love in Penny Lane on more than one occcasion, bought a bag of chips from Chris’s in Rose Lane and a pint in the Rose of Mossley only last Saturday (flying visit) and back in the seventies even had my fur permed à la Kevin Keegan and grew the required ‘Mexican bandit’ moustache, albeit a blond one. I have also been known to cry out, “Mind the ale, lads, mind the ale”, when the inevitable fight breaks out at the wedding reception. Oh, and I vividly recall some bird tripping down Old Hall Street with her scanties wrapped round her ankle. Yes, I was that romantic soul who offered to pull them up for you. 😀 Will that do?
OZ
Rushing out agin in a few minutes but just wanted to say I enjoyed this. and it made me think. You know, I can’t think of a single instance of either of my parents saying anything like this. And that surprises me quite a lot.
But I must take issue with OZ. The pride of Surrey is at stake. The first English mosque was in Woking.
See you later!
Ah! Thanks Isobel/OZ; first English mosque, eh ? I once interviewed some guy who was the proprietor of some dodgy Liverpool nightclub. The Magnet, I think it was called. Anyway, he said it was the first nightclub in England to admit black people. Although, seeing as it was 11am and the bloke stank of booze, and looked a tad glazed, I didn’t actually go with that line…
OZ; ach! The scanty panties blunder…comes back to bite me every time. NEarly went to work with a roller in my hair this morning. Even worse, because of the Hilda Ogden connotations, I think..
100 percent, scouse, by the way. And I am so so relieved you did not waffle on about de reds/de blews/aintree, by the way. My complete indifference to that lot automatically disqualifies me from ever becoming a proper scouser…or even half a one, akshulley 😉
Tocino: yes, I understand what you are saying. I didn’t express myself very well, anyway but I’m not inclined to revisit it at the moment. I may do so later when I have more time. Our outlooks may well change with age, but not necessarily and not because we are affected by these things directly. My children are affected, as is Claire, but we can still come to very different conclusions, which may or may not change as we grow older.
Hiya, Isobel – Done a bit of googling and it seems the mosque in Woking was established in the same year (1889) as the one in Liverpool, albeit only at the end of that year, so perhaps honours shared?
Das Fürballen send feline felicitations to Cat.
OZ
Boa; I think I’m with your brother on that one. Although, yes, schools are an issue in Blackburn. My littl’un goes to a school that is mostly of white pupils; I sosuppose I could be accused of hypocrisy/ double standards on the multi cultural thing, in a Labourite not-for my kids way, although it wasn’t a conscious decision; we just picked a good school en route to my work and put his name down.
But a lot of white parents in Blackburn get really het up about the schools issue.
Personally, as ateacher, I think the main problem arises at secondary level when you have a lot of crappy inner city schools around and so have to play the system
a bit to get in somewhere half decent
Tocino; Ara; hi..yes, perhaps it is generational. Although, I guess you only have to look at someone like Ana on MyT, who I suspect would be more inkeeping with Bravo’s and Christina’s views, to see that it can vary. I am sometimes baffled by my mum’s views, though.
Christina; where are my manners?! Thanks for your comment luv 😉
Janus; the demise of the Adelphi, eh…just one example of some of the decaying grandeur of Liverpool, I think. We started a campaign when I worked on the paper there, called ‘stop the rot’. But so many complaints flooded in , we had to abandon the whole thing!
Claire – I was there last weekend. It was chucking it down, so the Great Wolves took me on a tour by car of Liverpoool 1 and the new-look Pier Head, neither of which I had seen before. I have to say there was no sign of “decaying grandeur”, quite the reverse in fact. Liverpool is a city on the up, vibrant and modern, but not somewhere, sadly, I recognise any more. I have written before about being a stranger in a strange land. Last weekend I felt like a stranger in my own city.
OZ
Does this make sense to everyone else? Am I alone in thinking it a very odd and unfathomable remark?
It makes perfect sense to me, Isobel, if one takes a guess at the identity of the poster. One is of course never sure, hence the caution, but time will tell.
There are very few people on MyT or indeed WordPress, I would guess, who take an interest in Ferret’s vital statistics. 😉
Vital statistics Araminta? Is this one of those things that reaches back into a murky past where i don’t want to go? It is a rather sinister gravatar.
By the way, have you been using the My Comments option? I find it v useful to catch up on blog posts that I’ve found interesting. I really like all the twiddly bits you get to play with here. One day I may even be able to use them.
OZ; a tale of two cities, is Liverpool these days. I love the smart new shopping bit, but you’ve still got the crappy old Victorian Liverpool. DO you remember Quiggins? The Blundellsands Hotel? The Echo sent me to he Blundellsands Hotel when it was closing; the proprietors literally stripped te place bare of curtains, pianos, cutlery, and were selling off every last knife and fork at a huge public auction. The big dining rooms were replicas of those of great Liverpool liners; the Mauretania, Lusetania etc. It was weird and kinda sad to watch the crowds shuffling from room to room, fingering the drapes and the cutlery…
I’m waffling…but yes, ‘they’ seem determined to sweep the old Liverpool aside.
Just checked it out OZ and Shah Jehan mosque in Woking has it by a month or two. But yes, shared honours. 🙂
Great discussion here after I left. Thanks all.
One more recommendation for Claire: one of the best books I ever read
IN case you miss this on my bookmark post:
Instance of the Fingerpost – by Iain Pears
http://www.maa.org/reviews/fingerpost.html
http://blogcritics.org/books/article/book-review-instance-of-the-fingerpost/
for reviews.
thanks Pseu. Almost missed this but good to see you 😉