In the bank today I suddenly came face to face with a walking bin-liner. It really is a most unpleasant experience to see only two eyes staring at you from behind a wall of black. Should the bank even have let her in? Handy disguise for a bank robber, I’d have thought.
Then I remembered that on Monday during our day trip to Morocco I’d have quite welcomed something that spared me from the persistent attentions of all the street hawkers. I wouldn’t have gone for the all-enveloping niqab though. It was disappointing that nothing much seemed to have improved since our last visit to Morocco five years ago. The guide was not interested in showing us anything like the royal palace in Tetouan but just wanted to take us into the medina where he could lead us to a carpet shop. Apart from the fresh food everything on sale in the market was ‘tat’ and the clothes stalls looked as if some one had hijacked an Oxfam collection.
If asylum seekers/illegal immigrants can scrape up thousands to pay people -traffickers, they would do better to put the money towards a decent education for themselves. How can they expect to find a decent job in a western country without it? This culture still looked light years behind. Western tourists are for fleecing and thus the whole western world is supposed to hand out baksheesh.
Boadicea's Chariot 
One of my friends is a genuine asylum seeker. Her family tried to walk out of the country in which they lived, and were arrested and were closely watched for a number of years until they finally managed to get out – by walking.
The family spent two years in a refugee camp waiting and hoping to be allowed into Australia. During that time they learnt English.
They arrived in Australia with little more than hope, the desire to become Australian and determination to succeed.
Don’t ever ask her about the asylum seekers who pay thousands to jump the queues of those who are doing it the ‘right way’. She’d send them all back smartly to wherever they came from and refuse to ever let them in the country again.
As to:
Far too many don’t expect to find a job – they know once they’ve got to the pavements of London, they’ll find gold…
Sheona: if you don’t differentiate between “asylum seekers/illegal immigrants”, then I think your point is difficult or impossible to decipher.
Too right Araminta.
Araminta. There is an accepted and established way to claim asylum. One seeks asylum in the nearest safe haven. It isn’t about deciding where you want to go and rocking up on the doorstep and demanding entry.
As far as I’m concerned anyone who wants to jump the queues of those who are doing the right way are illegal.
Sheona, I live among them, in Blackburn…in the local MOrrisons, you see more of the ‘walking bin liners’ than you do of white people..It used to scare me and freak me out, and I still don’t buy into the philosophy of women having to cover themselves up, but I have got used to living among them…I’d get my head ripped off on MyT for saying this, but I find the Muslims nicer, better mannered and more civilised thn most of the white people in Blackburn.
Well said Clair. 🙂
Indeed, Boadicea, I agree, But Sheona lumped them all into one category, or so it seemed to me; hence my query.
Tocino; thanks…; )
For what it’s worth Claire, when I get on the Underground in London I’m always hopeful of getting offered a seat if there are young Asians on board and I’m rarely disappointed. The indigenous population studiously ignore me…
Yes, thanks Tocino, and interesting insight Claire. Frankly I’ve very little experience in this area, but not many of us here have, I would hazard a guess. So good for you for saying how you feel about it.
Boa; yes! The old Muslim men alway open doors for me with my double buggy; the women watch my baby when my three year old runs away in the park…you never get that with the white people.
Oops; well of course, Christina has, she is an expert! I expect she will tell us how it really is.:)
Entering this country illegally is a crime. As Boadicea’s friend pointed out, it is a crime that affects other people who go about the process legally.
As to bin liners. It is also illegal in this country to discriminate against people on the grounds of religion, amongst other things, but we connive at the breaking of the law by allowing dicrimination against muslim schoolgirls and the wearing of hoods or other face-coverings in some public places.
Whaaaaat! My youngest was born in Blackburn where they proclaim, “Nowt good ever came outa Bowton!” Let me introduce you to some very nice folk in Darwen too.
There is a camp outside Ceuta, the Spanish enclave in Morocco surrounded by high fences, set up by people trying to get over the fence onto Spanish territory. Once there they are in the EU technically and can apply for asylum. I believe that in the UK about 96% of “asylum” seekers are turned down because they are economic migrants. So I should have used inverted commas round the word asylum, Araminta. The EU rules state that you should apply for asylum in the first EU country you reach. I suppose it is this that leads to people-trafficking for those who do not wish to stay in Spain or France. I hope that your comment about the streets of London being paved with gold will soon become untrue, Boadicea – we cannot afford it.
Claire, no matter how warm and wonderful the person underneath the bin-liner, I do not feel comfortable being confronted by a pair of eyes only. It’s probably the culture I was brought up in – the British one. Since there is apparently nothing in the Koran that stipulates this form of dress, it always strikes me as yet another push at the boundaries.
Leaving aside the relatively small number of genuine asylum-seekers like Boadicea’s friends, I still think the rest would be better buying themselves some education. Otherwise they end up being exploited in whichever country – Chinese cockle pickers?
Sheona, yes you are correct there is no Quranic injunction that stipulates it must be worn. Yet you do not take into consideration ‘personal choice’, before you start … yes I am sure there are some women who have no say in the matter of what they wear yet there are those who choose to do so. For them it is a lifestyle choice, in the same way somebody else would choose to wear a bikini. So is it the dress that offends, if so you can’t be to fond of nuns … they are not far from the burkha stage …. or is the person inside …. the foreigner. Or at least the perceived foreigner.
Nuns don’t cover their faces, mate.
Hhmmm Kev – I rather think that a woman who chose to wear a bikini to go into the bank or the ‘First Night at the Proms’ might get one or two funny looks… and in the latter case would probably be refused entry…
No, kevmart, I have no problem with nuns since, as Bearsy says, you can see their faces. And the lady yesterday had, as far as I could see, blue eyes and white skin so probably not a “foreigner”, whatever you mean by that. I’m not keen on fellows with all-covering balaclavas either.
Boadicea has it – appropriate clothing for the place. And a non-salafist country is not an appropriate place for a niqab.
Kevmart chum,
I have to say i find the full battledress a little disquieting too.
For example I am required to wear a motorcycle helmet by law, not because I want to. If I pull into a petrol station, the spotty teenager behind the glass usually will not even enable the petrol pump until I have removed said helmet. I have no worries about this because I know many attendants are fearful of robbery and will get worried when people conceal their features.
Why should these wearers of the Niqab feel that their personal desire to wear a full on ninja cosume takes presedence over an entire nations sense of common courtesy?
Bearsy, Bo & Sheona – Reading my comment again it does come across as critical of Sheona, I assure that was not my intent … rather my intent was to criticise the approach as i felt it took no account of the woman’s choice.
Note I did say regarding nuns ‘they are not far from the burkha stage’, having said that there are Catholic nuns in Asia and Africa that do veil themselves as there are some Buddhist nuns who do likewise.
My point is one of choice, providing no law is broken and despite whether we like it or not should we/can we impose on anyone what they should or should not wear. I fully support any move that is made to remove the veil where security is concerned, Islamically speaking there is nothing to prevent these women from removing the veil when asked for security purposes, medical purposes etc. Those who seek to control what women should wear and those who seek to control what they should not wear …. well in my opinion there is little difference between the two.
On the subject of foreign, I threw that in because there are still many that foolishly believe all Muslims are dark skinned and all dark skinned are Muslims …. so quite often what we see is certain people (let me be clear, I speak generally and in no way am I pointing fingers) dressing their prejudices in the Muslim garb … or should I say niqab …. for fear of being labelled a racist should they actually say what they really feel.
Ferret, see my response above.
I do not endorse the wearing of the veil against that persons will, nor do I endorse the veil in regards to security matters etc.
There is one law that all should abide by NO EXEMPTIONS!!! and those who do not like it …. well as far as I am concerned ‘they can do one’ … they can go and reside wherever allows them to play these silly games.
Sure there are – but that is not Britain, is it?
Did you mean Britain?, you never said!!!
Well, I meant the UK, or the USA or France or Australia or New Zealand …
Don’t be disingenuous, Kev. 😕
Kevmart,
Correct in some ways chum but not in a very important one.
This is Britain, we do not walk the streets in balaclavas even though there is no law against it. It is upsetting to others and causes alarm when someone deliberately conceals their features. The wearing of the Niqab is offensive to a high percentage of the population. There are some who dare not admit it for fear of appearing non-PC or racist, but the simple matter is that the practice of concealing your complete apperance jars with our culture.
Bearsy,
I believe the author was in Gibralter at the time of the encounter. 🙂
Bearsy, last word … for now 🙂
Is that not the same as saying, well because nobody else here wears it then why should you. My problem with that is choice, surely if they are wearing this with the stipulations I laid out on a previous response and obviously keeping within the confines of the law …. then is it right for anyone to dictate what they cannot wear.
A way forward/compromise would be have the law clearly state that where there exists security concerns the veil must be removed … no two ways about it.
Yes it is.
They are immigrants and should integrate and assimilate with the ambient culture. Why should they be so rude as to ignore the customs of their host nation?
When Brits visit their nations, they follow their rules.
Why should reciprocity not apply?
Dya know what, you lot are gonna get me into trouble … I really should tear myself away from here.
Ferret, you won’t get an argument from me. It is as much alien to me as it is to you and others however for me it still goes back to having a choice and remaining within the confines of the law..
Not so long ago, one of the most respected Islamic scholars made headlines in calling for the veil to be removed, so there does exist debate within Muslims societies in relation to this. The fear of the veil being manipulated for nefarious reasons will continue to stoke controversy until we either completely ban it or let people retain the choice.
KM
What nuns do in Asia, Africa, or on Mars is of no concern of mine – I don’t live there.
If the people in Asia, Africa and Mars have evolved a culture which does not rely on facial recognition and expression – fine! But the culture in which these women choose to live is reliant on an ‘open’ face.
Were the culture of the Little Green Men of Mars to be reliant on ‘open’ toes, I rather think they would be unhappy (and rightly so) were I to choose to hide my toes in a pair of shoes whilst living amongst them…
I take on board all your comments regarding choice and control, in that we are agreed. And I’m pleased that you agree with the tenet of ‘one law and no exemptions’ regarding security, etc.’
But, what I wish these women would realise is that by wearing that garb they are proclaiming loudly and clearly that they do not want to participate in the culture in which they live – it’s a bit like sticking two fingers up to everyone around them, and doesn’t make for good relations…
… by the way, Furry, Gibraltar is the UK. Had thee forgot? 😀
Kevmart,
Of course the nuns of which you speak wear the veil out of respect for the local culture. Well that and the fact that they would probably be stoned to death if they did not.
I know and I also forgot how to spell Gibralter.
It may be UK soil but it has a whole other identity, climate and culture Bearsy and you know it. Just like the Falklands.
Let the poor guy get on with his work! 🙂
Not according to Sheona, on an earlier post … but I’ll let you win Ferret, I feel benevolent tonight. Christ on a bicycle, look at the time – I’m off to bed. ‘Night all! 😆
G’Night Bearsy,
We’re all winners these days Bearsy haven’y you heard? 🙂
G’Night Bearsy,
We’re all winners these days Bearsy haven’t you heard? 🙂
Furry, is that a win-win situation? 8)
Ho Ho Hugh,
Bleedin double click pooh.
It’s not considered sporting to have a loser these days.
As regards Gibraltar, Ferret, it’s the same as Britain and different. You can speak English everywhere or you can speak the local version of Spanish. You can get a decent pint of British draught beer or you can have a glass of Spanish wine.You can choose between British, Spanish and Moroccan cuisine. There is a large Jewish community and a large Moroccan community – 2 synagogues, 1 mosque. The older Moroccan ladies frequently wear national dress, very attractive in lovely colours, but they do not cover their faces. Spain has a fairly large number of Muslim converts and I assume that the black crow I encountered yesterday was one such. Converts often try to outdo the originals, don’t they? (Plus catholique que le Pape – as the French say)
France has had problems with the salafists insisting on their women wearing the veil and refusing to allow them to remove it even for identity checks. There have been reports in the papers of teachers refusing to hand over children to women refusing to identify themselves and of attacks on civil servants by men who refuse to allow the woman to unveil for ID verification. In Britain too there are Muslim jewellers refusing to allow veiled women into their shops after attacks by men in disguise. It just does not fit our western society and it’s a provocation with no religious backing.
Is it just the veil you object? How do yo feel about the headscarves?
Levent,
For me the headscarves are not a problem. As long as the women are not forced to wear them of course.
Along the West Road here in Newcastle there are umpty-gazillions of Halal establishments, exotic mini-markets, mosques and fast food gaffs. It is the asian quarter of the city and except for the complete lack of public houses I love a good bimble along it. I do love to make my own curries and can only find the more specialist ingredients on the West Rd. (And very reasonably priced too). The colours and stitching of the outfits are superb. I very rarely come across a veil.
Thanks, Ferret.
Boadicea and Claire, does this not strike you as ironic? I grew up in an environment where women were treated very differently to men. I was taught always to stand up when a woman walked into the room, to offer my seat, to offer to carry whatever load she was bearing, to open doors etc, etc. In other words, I was taught to treat her like a lady. When I arrived in the UK, bright eyed an bushy tailed, I was staying with some wealthy relatives. We were all seated for dinner, when a lady came in and started serving us all with soup. Quick as a flash, I leaped to my feet, only to be told to sit down as this was the job for which she was paid. However, that little faux pas did not stop me from offering my seat to women on the tube and on trains and to show courtesy where and when appropriate. That was all a long time ago. Western women have asked for their independence. They have got it. If I offer my seat to a woman now, she looks at me as if I am a nutter. For men to behave like gentlemen, women need to behave like ladies. Sadly such values have been lost in Britain. It would appear that Muslims and Asians have a different attitude. But then again, Muslim men do not treat their women as equals.
I always give up my seat, open doors etc. I usually get a smile.
Hello Janus; small world, eh..?! I’m always whinging about Blackburn and Wigan, but like a lot of northeners, to whom everywhere below Birmingham is ‘down south’, I think I’d miss the place if I ever left…
My favourite place oop north is Liverpool…you can’t beat it seeing grown men singing with bags of chips on their heads on a Friday night. ; )
Sipu; good point. Equality and courtesy shouldn’t cancel each other out, should they…?
Bravo; you sound like such a gent ; )
Sheona, the fact that you continue to refer to this person as ‘black crow’ is rather telling. Perhaps seeing a person first may help in coming towards a common understanding.
Ferret, Bo and Bearsy, not only do I take on board what you say I also agree. However the reality is that there are people that choose to wear this garment and whilst no legal restraint prevents them it would be best to regulate it. That means the law being explicit so that in cases of security there remains no ambiguity … removal of the face covering being a must.
An article that may be of interest.
http://affadshaikh.blogspot.com/2006/11/wearing-veil-in-west.html
kevmart, the whole point is that I don’t see a person at all because all I see is a pair of eyes. Male? Female? Who knows?
Male? Female? …. a person nonetheless. Not everyone in life matches our expectations and if were to cast aside all those plus the ones we don’t agree with … soon there will remain ‘last man/woman standing’
Sipu,
Interesting point.
I will repeat a comment that I made earlier. Men who say that women do not deserve courtesy because they are independent are just using that to excuse their bad manners. Perhaps it is because such men do not behave like gentlemen that women treated them with the lack of courtesy that they deserve…
Well tell me, why is it do you think that Asian and Muslim men behave so well and and white men do not. You seem to be making the point that the fault does not lie with the attitudes of western women. Bear in mind while you are only one woman dealing with lots of men, I am one man dealing with lots of women. You have your experiences and I have mine and they are from opposite ends of the spectrum. Personally, I believe that good manners are a two way street. You seem to be disagreeing and saying that the fault for the decline in chivalry lies entirely with men. It just seem to be a little coincidental that this decline has happened as women have gained their independence. I believe in cause and effect. If you kick a dog long enough and hard enough, it will bite you. Maybe it should not, but it will.
Sipu.
I said that on the London Underground Asian (I have no idea if they are Muslim or not) young males are generally far more polite to a white woman (me) than the majority of white men of what ever age.
You seem to claim that this is due to the fact that women have become more independent. Might I, tactfully, suggest that young Asian males are as aware of my independence as any white male? And, since they do not use my independence as an excuse to be discourteous, I must look for another reason for the increasing ill-manners of the white male.
I also believe in cause and effect. I think that a fairly significant number of white males, particularly older white males, resent the fact that women are now independent and are using the ‘equality’ issue to be discourteous.
I will not dispute that a fair number women have, mistakenly, thought that ‘equality’ is all about being rude to men. But one person’s bad-manners does not justify anyone else being equally ill-mannered.
Yes you may tactfully suggest that Asian males are aware of your independence (the Muslim reference was due to Claire having mentioned that Muslims were more polite than whites), but by the same token might I suggest that that being the case one would expect them to behave the same way as whites (Or maybe you are suggesting that this is a racial thing rather than a cultural difference). The fact they don’t, if I may be so bold, is owing to the fact that their culture differentiates between the roles of men and women. Ours does not. If women want to be treated like men and want to behave like men, that is what is going to happen. You cannot have your cake and eat it.
Sipu, what your argument seems to imply is that Western women have given up their rights to respect and dignity because they have given up their subservience to men. Is that right?
That, Janus, is exactly what Sipu is suggesting.
I don’t recall ever saying that I wanted to be treated like a man, nor that I wanted to behave like a man.
But I do expect to be paid at the same rate as a man for the same job, and I do expect the same rights under the law as a man.
I just wonder the men who treat women nice, also treat men nice? Equality in treatment as well.(I know women protesting when treated nice, door opening etc) Why treating women nice is called good manners?
Interesting article Kev. Written by an educated, literate Westerner who seems to think that, as usual it’s all ‘our’ fault. No mention of the use of the black sack as an instrument of the oppression of non-educated, illiterate women across swathes of the muslim World – Pakistan, parts of Arabia, much of N. Africa, bits of Asia, Afghanistan..along with all the other repressive aspects of these male-dominated societies.
As was pointed out above, the black sack de-personalises whoever is underneath it: I quote the Fourth Surah, (again,) ‘If ye be kind to women, and fear to wrong them, then god is well-acquainted with what ye do.’
Boadicea has it about right. it is ridiculous to suggest that women should not be paid the same as men if they are doing the same job. It is also ridiculous to suggest that women should not be trested as women because we, as a society, have come to realise that not treating a woman’s efforts equally with thoe of a man is unfair and unjust.
if I might amend that quote, a little, ‘if ye be kind to women, and fear to harm them, by christ it makes your life a whole lot easier! Bringing flowers and chocolates for no apparent reason is always good, too.’
Sipu,
Personally I do not get out of my seat on a bus/train, or hold a door open etc for a woman because I worry what she thinks of me, one way or the other.
I do all those things because I would feel very uncomfortable if I didn’t. I have experienced the fire breathing feminist who demands the right to open the door for herself. In such a case I simply apologise and think no more of it. These things are simply good manners which are falling by the wayside.
I remember a dim and distant blog on MyT about a teenage lad who refused to remove his hat in the presence/home of his g/friends Granny. The gran was rightly put out about the ill manners, the mother thought she was being and old stick in the mud, and the teenager was blissfully unaware he was causing any offence at all.
They’ll be wearing beanies in church next.
Boa,
Of course women should be treated as equals, I don’t think Sipu is disputing that fact.
Furry, hats off to a well-mannered mustelid here! 😛
Levent & Ferret – you’ll never hear me complain about being treated nicely, and I will always say “thank you very much” in return.
Ferret – What it seems to me that Sipu is saying with his:
… is that because I have independence, I must expect to be treated the same as he would treat a man. For what it’s worth, I will stand for anyone older than me – and that includes a frail, older man. It is, as you say, simple good manners.
Boa,
There are two different arguments then.
One is about how gentlemen should behave in the presence of ladies.
The other is about respect for ones elders.
Chalk and cheese but still under the general heading of basic good manners.
Good manners. Now we get to the point. Whatever happened to them. I feel the same as Ferret, I treat women with respect becuase it’s what I do and I would feel uncomfortable if I didn’t do it. That applies to all women, btw, including the ones who I presume are women under their black sacks – perhaps especially them, since it must make a change from having to walk three paces behind…
Bravo, do yo carry and umbrella? 🙂
You reminded me Sting’s song, Englishman in New York
Possibly off-topic, but reasonably relevant to Bravo’s last comment.
Yesterday, sitting in the car waiting for Boadicea, I observed a young couple who were clearly recent immigrants from India/Pakistan. He, in jeans and T-shirt, was walking many paces ahead of her, swigging nonchalantly on his water bottle. She, in the long shirt thing with pantaloony style trousers was coping with their little lad, who was having a boisterous episode.
I mused on culture difference. But no – I was wrong, they had been in Australia for longer than I imagined. She called him back, swiped the water bottle and pointed imperiously at the child. He meekly stepped back to the lad, tried to reason with him, then swung him up on his shoulders and followed her to their car.
Now that’s what I call integration and assimilation! 😀
What I am saying is that if women demand equal rights with and to be treated like men, they will be treated like men. If they want to be treated like ladies they should behave like ladies. Nobody has any right to be treated with respect and dignity. I really despair when people start talking about their rights. Most men who choose to show women respect do so because they believe them to be worthy of it. I suggest that a depressing number of women, especially those who grew up after the War, are not worthy of that respect. The relationship between men and women should be a social one, not a legal one.
As for being paid the same as a man, Market forces should determine that, not the law. Likewise, if a woman wants to do man’s job such as in the police and military, she should face the same selection criteria as men. Of course I recognise that there are some jobs within those institutions where a woman’s inherent abilities are better suited, but if a man needs to be a certain height, weight and physical strength to patrol the streets, women should meet the same standards.
Sipu
This is a pointless discussion – it seems that Bravo, Ferret, Janus, Levent and Bearsy work on the assumption that women are ladies until proven otherwise and treat them accordingly, whereas you seem to assume that they are not. It is not surprising, to me, that what you expect is what you get.
Hmm Sipu,
And there in lies our major difference. No-one should demand respect, no-one should need to IMHO.
Complete strangers of either gender and any age should be treat with good manners and a degree of respect on account of them being another human being. If they then reveal themselves to be unworthy of respect, then the reason they do not get it of their own making.
How utterly rude to be disrespectful to a complete stranger.
I agree entirely, except I would delete ‘man’s’
Baodicea, Ferret, agree – except, Ferret, i would delete ‘respect’ and substitute ‘politeness.’ Respect has to be earned.
Bravo,
I disagree.
The whole sorry state of affairs that is this country IMO is the complete lack of respect for those around us.
Who was up in arms last week because of the lack of respect his neighbour displayed over BBQ smoke? I always look over my fences before sparking up ol’ propane elaine. A basic law of putting meat to the heat. That is a degree of respect I give to others laundry.
I fully expect to receive a similar degree of respect from others. Granted I am often disappointed, but that will never affect the way I conduct my own interaction.
Further respect can be earned and lost, but a certain amount should be given. Call it the ante if you like.
Sipu, “Nobody has any right to be treated with respect and dignity.” This is a McEnroe moment. You cannot be serious. Everybody does, until such time as they do something which proves they do not.
Well, we can agree to differ on this on – but we may be talking at cross-purposes. I would call what you describe, ‘consideration,’ rather than respect, but what the hell, comes down to the same thing, I guess.
Bravo,
Potatoes – Potartoes I reckon.
Respect, consideration, benefit of the doubt. Without it we are all savages in isolation and fear.
Janus,
Exactly wot I rote, but in fewer words and easier to understand. Thank you.
Janus, no, though of course I recognise that people have a reasonable expectation not to be harmed or abused. Showing respect implies a transfer of something positive. If I show you respect, you gain something. Likewise if I insult you, you lose. You may be worthy of respect, but it is not owed to you. It is a sign of respect to offer my seat to a lady, but she has no right to demand it.
Right, same meat, different gravy.
Bravo, Ferret, Janus and I share a gentlemanly code of behaviour which Sipu rejects.
Is that right, dear? 🙄
Sipu, you seem to opt out of natural human intercourse. Shame.
It is interesting that the ‘gentlemen’ among you seem so ready dish out insults.
Sipu,
Insults? Only ever in response. I am ever polite to new IDs they are afforded a certain level of respect until they prove otherwise.
I was under the assumption we were having a debate here Sipu. Kindly point out where I have insulted you?
Pot? Kettle?
Oh, good grief! Ferret, read the two comments above mine from Bearsy and Janus, not to mention the former’s little hissy fit the other day. The odious sanctimoniousness and hypocrisy of some people is really repellent.
Sipu,
Then I have to say that I am truly sorry you feel that way.
From my point of view this is debate, sometimes robust granted, but on the whole reasonable.
Bravo, you will have to take that issue up with the author of the article, all I did was provide the readers with an alternative viewpoint. Granted there are many and all hold some element of truth. So far as your assertion as to the oppression found in these societies I tend to agree with you in terms of its existence … however like everything else in life it is not a simple case of ‘black and white’ there does exist many shades of grey in between. One of these is that there are women that willingly submit themselves to wearing this because ‘in their’ belief it is the right thing to do, should we take this right to choose from these women and if we do are we then better than those that demand the compliance of these women to wear.
From an theological viewpoint there is no justification in oppressing any element of society however the cultures of these places you mention have always had a paternal slant (massively) and no amount of modernisation will change this. In contrast to these countries when you look at states for example such as Turkey and Bosnia you find the reverse … in that women are in every equal to women … at least on paper …. much as it is throughout the world.
What can we do about it? How do we bring about change? Firstly we need to look closer to home and bring about positive change in our immediate lives …. bring about true equality between the sexes. It’s all very well having legislation that promotes equality, we have to actively practise as well. Then and only then can we work to bring about changes in the wider sense of the world. In doing this will we have solved the issue …. NO!!!! what about equality between races, sexuality, religion etc etc.
Good news is, we must not be disheartened because we can ultimately bring about change …. that change first must come from within.
Kev, >…should we take this right to choose from these women…< No. We should not take the right to choose from anyone. What we should do, however, is apply the law equally to everyone; we should not discriminate againdt muslim schoolgirls, not should we discriminate for muslim women about wearing face coverings in public places – and over the search rules in airports.
We cannot do much about the oppression of women in male dominated, (paternal is a bot of a cop-out,) societies except to express disapproval – or, maybe start a protest movement on the lines of the apartheid protest? Boycott the countries which discriminate against women in the same way that aparthhied discriminated against non-whites. What we should do, however, is apply our own laws and standards in our own land – without favour. If people want to come and live here, then it's a case of FIFO.
B22C, it heartens me to witness that you apprear to be endorsing almost everything I have said on the subject. One law for, equally applicable to all. As long as people remain within the confines of the law then it should be left to the individuals discretion. Of course the law is an ass and on this particular issue needs to be amended at the earliest opportunity to reflect security concerns …. and of course ‘those that choose to live beyond the law, there remains the option of FIFO!!! This is where we the electorate can play an active part. Sadly there is way too much apathy; little action and too much talking.
In relation to those countries that continue to deny women their rights, that treat women as second-class citizens …. I’m afraid your idea of a protest movement is unlikely to ever get off the ground. Why, you ask … REALPOLITIK!!! The worst offenders are supported and kept in power by us in the west. So again the change must come from within, if we can persuade our respective governments that their support is misplaced ….. well just watch how fast these tyrants are overthrown by the local populace.