Cherished readers from other climes may not fully appreciate the delicacy of this. But it is with some trepidation that I dare to post on the topic of North Britain because a wrong word might lead to a punch-up – or even worse, a Glasgow kiss.
You see the Independent Tendency north of the Border (or perhaps north of Hadrian’s Wall) fancy going it alone in the new, globalised environment. But mine not to reason why they choose now as opposed to some future time when there might just be enough wonga about to pay for it all. They want a referendum in 2014, 700 years after the Battle of Bannockburn, which history records was a defeat for the English. A fitting date, they aver.
But (you knew that was coming) what they didn’t count on was that the whole matter might conceivably be taken out of their hands altogether by the intervention of the population south of Berwick who must surely be allowed some say in the matter. What if we (I must declare an interest) demand a simultaneous referendum and vote ‘yes’ to their independence, even if they themselves vote ‘no’? Surely the sheer weight of numbers will decide the matter and they will be cast adrift?
We’re not just talking patriotic sentiment here – on either side of the argument. Given the parlous state of the Eurozone, one might wish to enquire what the new currency of Nova Caledonia is likely to be? Not the Pound Sterling certainly. I mean, a deserter has to make his own way. But where? So it looks as if the romance of the whole idea might soon lose its lustre, not to say its lucre.
PS: that’s Robert the Bruce, an earlier deserter
Boadicea's Chariot 
I hope that the United Kingdom will not fragment; I really do not think that this is in the best interests of either Scotland or England.
I don’t think it’s going to happen, but this may just be wishful thinking.
I don’t think my fellow countrymen will vote for independence, Janus. Alex Salmond is just getting panicked because he was hoping that another two years might enable him to convince more doubters and now he’s being rushed. I would like to see a referendum, not on Scottish independence but on whether the rest of us want Northern Ireland. Jenny McCartney’s article on Jean McConville in today’s DT reminds us all of what a bunch of scumbags Adams, McGuinness and the rest were and how that other scumbag, Blair, was nevertheless happy to do business with them.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/northernireland/9014697/Jean-McConville-one-of-Belfasts-stubborn-ghosts.html
There are worse things than Scotland.
Love the statue.
Hooray, Janus, for being one of a very few commentators who has dared to suggest that the English be consulted on this fundamental matter! For the record and with all due respect to the sages of Embra and Weegie, not to mention Sheona too, i would like to see a referendum in England, this year, with the question “Do you think Andy Murray really gives a sh*t about you?2 If not cut the MciIgrates loose right now, whether it suits Alex Salmond’s agenda or not.
OZ
If they had a referendum in England Scotland would be independent pretty quickly. I don’t think Salmond realised that the English might be pleased to let Scotland go.
Whilst the Union might be a good idea theoretically in practice the relationship is disfunctional and should end.
Janus, your penultimate line, well put!
Of course most of England wants to get rid of the extraneous bits, they cost serious money and more than they are worth!
At least the Welsh don’t keep bitching about it and biting the hand that feeds them, far more pragmatic.
But Scotland should ‘pipe down’ or else they will find they are cast adrift whether they want it or not in due course.
Salmond has his head up his arse.
Sheona, it’s in the nature of revolution that terrorists are viewed as liberators and take over the reins of power. There have been some horrible precedents for the IRA coup like Lenin and Castro – even Gandhi!
Arrers, without my satirical hat on, I agree. What a silly waste of time and effort, just to prove you have a different culture. Get a life, eh? I can understand downtrodden communities seeking independence but Scotland? They’ve already got it made!
I doubt that Salmond with get his ‘yes’ vote.
I always thought it most unfair that England was never asked whether it wanted to hang on to Northern Ireland.
… And I think it’s exceedingly unfair that the English Parliament still have Scots sitting there voting on issues which have nothing to do with them.
Boa, exactly. Why on earth do they want to give up all their financial support and voting privileges? As a wise old NY boss once remarked to me: “I wonder what they’ll do for an encore!” Shooting themselves in the foot or what?
Godmorgen, Janus and a Good New Year to you.
I had bet myself that, as resident gadfly in chief, you would be the first to post on this subject.
I have composed about five different detailed and lengthy comments on your post and have deleted all of them. My problem is that this is far too important a subject to be trivialised by name-calling and cheap jibes on either side of the argument. It really is a matter of ‘patriotic sentiment’ for me and I will be doing my utmost to defend my country, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, against all those who seek to belittle its achievements, sneer at its present or destroy its future, be they from north or south of Hadrian’s Wall (or more accurately the Solway and the Tweed).
The proposed referendum is, at the moment, purely a consultative one as constitutional change is reserved to Westminster. If David Cameron ups the stakes and turns it into a binding one, then you are, in my opinion,, quite correct to say that the whole of the UK should be consulted. For as long as it remains a consultative one, for which Salmond has a mandate since it was in his manifesto, then I believe it to be a purely Scottish matter. I will be doing my utmost to persuade my fellow Scots to preserve the Union. As part of that process, Unionists will clearly have to set out their beliefs as to what independence might entail. Beliefs are all they can be at this stage.
If the Unionist parties fail in that referendum, it will be time to involve the whole country in the details of the breakup of my country and the distribution of the assets and liabilities thereof. I hope never to see that day.
As a complete separate issue, the Westminster Parliament is presently considering proposals to deal with the West Lothian question and is drawing up plans to extend the tax-raising powers of the Scottish Parliament which would mitigate the effect of the Barnett formula. No Scot that I have met on either side of the argument thinks that Scottish MPs should vote on legislation which only affects England and Wales or Northern Ireland.
At the moment, I believe that the United Kingdom is, de facto, a federal structure with one constituent state, England, being prejudiced by not enjoying the same rights as the others. There should be an English Parliament. My hope is people of good will throughout my country can work together to resolve our differences and get back to the stage where we present a united front to the world and confine conflicts between ourselves (I agree with Bearsy on the between/among controversy) to the sporting field
A fine and totally inaccurate statue of Bruce at Bannockburn, by the way, By an English sculptor, cast in England and funded by Canada after us Jocks proved too mean to raise the necessary funds. Sort of typical, really.
http://www.bannockburn.co.uk/history/canadiancash-robertaitken.html
Thanks for that, JM. I was hoping you’d present your views.
Dear OZ, would it be tactless to mention the fact that of the six Brits in the Australian Open, five have been eliminated in the first round? I’m not sure about Elena Baltacha, but the rest are Sassenachs. Let’s hope Andy can keep the Union Jack flying. If you don’t want him, he can fly the Scottish flag instead. Isn’t it amazing how a successful Scot immediately becomes a Brit?
JM – your comments are those of an intelligent, informed gentleman. Alas, the same cannot be said of the vast majority of either the pollies or plebs north and south of the border! The Press will influence in their selfish way once again.
From my own irrelevant point of view, I do agree with you except for the Northern Ireland bit. Get rid of the angry bigoted violent narrow minded aggressive drain on the public purse NI’ers I say, based solely on opinion and no fact!
Sheona – no-one in England has any doubt the bloke is a Scot, win or lose. Even if he won Wimbledon, he’d drape himself in the flag of St Andrew without a hint of guilt or awkwardness.
Cuprum, no place for self-determination in your book then?
Janus – yes of course dear chap, but how far should one go? I met a member of the Yorkshire Republican Army once and was delighted with his suggestions. Crack on said I. Go talk funny amongst yourselves.
I personally think we should have the Nation State of the Home Counties and bugger the rest of the scrounging UK that feed off the income generated there, but hey ho, that level of self determination may not be to everyone’s liking.
As seen in the mess in Europe, we are all different and history shows the differences will always be greater than the similarities…. or so the ruling classes and press would have us believe when it suits.
I personally don’t know sufficient facts to argue regarding Scotland, hence my deference to JM’s comments. My brain reckons they’d be mad to go alone as there’s is no way they could survive financially, it would seem to me. (based on again, my opinion, no facts to back it up)
However, I really don’t get the Northern Ireland thing. I don’t like ’em, so bugger off and stop sponging. No coincidence that the southern Oirish don’t want them either.
The Welsh seem a nice enough bunch, so they can scrounge a bit more as long as they don’t burn down any more cottages.
The Cornish are a bit mad, so let them be independent if they want. I could go on…..
It’s all so subjective and I’ll never get asked anyway, so my rants mean nothing! As for self determination, Long live the Republic of Number 24! 😀
At Wimbledon I think the flag of St Andrew would be removed from Murray to be replaced with a Union Jack, cuprum. Decorum, you know.
Until now, like the good foreigner that I am, I have refrained from commenting on this subject. However –
I have never understood why the Scots ignore their historical victory and continue to whine and whinge about their self-assessed inferiority to anyone who will listen – and thump those who won’t. It would be pleasant to see them withdraw from England and consolidate behind their own borders where they can prove their inferiority to their heart’s content.
Secondly –
Tow the entire island into the Atlantic and pull out the plug – “You know it makes sense.” 😀
Well kind of sort of. Don’t forget the Glorious Revolution, when the people of England cried,
“Avast, no more these Scottish monarchs we’ll adore”.
I do not know how typical my ancestry is, but there appears to be a very even mix of English and Scottish blood in my veins with a few drops of Irish and Welsh added for flavour. I suspect, most Britons have similarly mixed nationalities. The English have been going to Scotland and the Scots to England, for centuries.
Salmond uses an event that took place 700 years ago to appeal to the more base nature of his constituents as a rallying point for his cause. It is rather pathetic really, not to mention bigoted, as are the lyrics of the Scottish rugby anthem. It would not be so bad had the song been written in 1400, but 1967 looks a bit desperate. It is fine as a folk song, the original intention, but as a pseudo national anthem, I think not.
I’m glad we’ve got that matter duly sorted then. 🙂
Born in Surrey, eh, Cuprum? That explains it.
Sipu, don’t forget that the England rugby team hijacked the British national anthem to be its own. Not an act to promote goodwill. As regards Bannockburn, and given the current parlous state of education even in Scotland, I would imagine most people would never have heard of it or would think it was a new pop group. As for 1314, well that would be considered a rugby result.
Personally, I hope that the Scots vote convincingly against independence and that the Salmond creature slither back under the stone he crawled from.
I think that if the Scots gain their independence, they will rapidly regret it.
The English Rugby anthem is a matter of some debate, with Will Carling’s old farts of the RFU, and their predecessors and successors being held responsible. The debate for a new anthem seems to be between “Jerusalem” and “Land of hope and glory”.
I see some wickedly minded people have suggested that the Scots referendum should be held in 2013, since that is the 500th anniversary of the Battle of Flodden, where the Caledonians came a distinct second.
Actually, FEEG, 2013 might be a better choice for Salmond. He could play on the tragedy of Flodden when “the flowers o’ the forest were a’ weed awa’.
Not sure I understand that. Maybe there is some event of which I am unaware. All I know is that God Save The Queen is the National Anthem of the United Kingdom and I believe that all member countries should sing it. Even when Scotland and Wales play each other, it should be sung and take precedence over anything else. I understand the need for separate identity when it comes to sport, so individual anthems could precede the National Anthem. It is short enough to allow things not drag on too long.
Sheona, a Good New Year to you.
Usually ‘wede awa’, I think that you will find. Meaning to ‘remove or carry off, often by death’ ‘Weed’ would be the past participle of the verb ‘to wee’ and have a very different meaning, if you follow my flow.
On your #21, Bannockburn will probably be a public holiday in brave New Caledonia if Sleekit Salmond triumphs. Talking rugby, I was at Murrayfield in 1974 when, in the never to be forgotten words of Norman Mair in the ‘Jockstrap’ aka ‘The Scotsman’ newspaper on the following Monday:-
‘With the score 13:14 and the scent of Bannockburn in the air, young Andy Irvine lined up his last minute penalty attempt.’
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/news-comment/england-v-scotland-the-greatest-moments-1647958.html?action=gallery&ino=4
Sipu, a Good New Year to you.
Can you please give me the source of your quotation? Google has failed me completely.
Given that the House of Stewart only ended in 1714 with the death of Anne, I am a wee bit confused.
Totally in favour of the Glorious Revolution itself, by the way. A good thing and one of my favourite bits of ‘1066 and All That’.
‘Chapter XXXVIII. ENGLAND RULED BY AN ORANGE
WILLIAMANMARY for some reason was known as The Orange in their own country of Holland, and were popular as King of England because the people naturally believed it was.descended from Nell Glyn. It was on the whole a good King and one of their first Acts was the Toleration Act, which said they would tolerate anything, though afterwards it went back on this and decided that they could not tolerate the Scots.’
🙂
Hello JM, my quotation comes from a book called ‘The Kings and Queens of England’ by Eleanor Farjeon. I have quoted from it in the past. Sadly I do not have a copy. It provides a history of the monarchs in poetic form many of which poems I learned as a child. It is not unlike 1066 etc in that it is often humorous and some of its facts have dubious provenance. Certainly our resident historian has corrected me on occasion, but that may be because I ‘misremembered’ some of the words.
The quote above is from William and Mary, natch, but I don’t remember much else of that particular poem. I do understand that Queen Ann was the last Stewart Monarch, but the first 4 Scottish monarchs, ‘you know their names, James and Charles and Charles and James’, seemed to identify the Stewart period and lets face it they were a bit disappointing, hence the Oranges were invited over. Anne was a bit of an accident in that William and Mary did not have children as they were supposed to have done. Anne was not expected to be Queen an d despite her 17 confinements produced no heirs. So then came the Germans which lead to Billy (call me Butch) Cumberland. Though I discovered that he earned the sobriquet not for his actions at Culloden, but for his insistence on lopping off the heads of those Scottish aristos who had taken part in the uprising. Remember this chap, the last man to have his head chopped off in England? http://www.tate.org.uk/britain/exhibitions/hogarth/images/works/simon_lord_lovat.jpg
My darling Scottish mother was always very fond of General James Wolfe because he refused to execute some of the prisoners as demanded by one of the generals, saying he was a soldier not an executioner. In the famous painting of Wolfe’s death scene on the Plains of Abraham at Quebec, Lovat’s son is included even though he was not actually present. He had become devoted to Wolfe because of his decent behaviour at Culloden. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_General_Wolfe
Anyway, here for your edification here is the first poem from the book:
William the First was the first of our kings
Not counting Ethelreds, Egberts and things
He had himself crowned, anointed and blessed
In ten sixty, I needn’t tell you the rest.
Being a Norman King William the First
By the Saxons he conquered was hated and cursed
They planned and they plotted, far into the night
Which William could tell by their candles alight.
King William decided there rebels to quell
By ringing a curfew, a sort of a bell
And if any Saxon was found out of bed
By eight o’clock sharp, it was off with head.
At bong number one they all started to run
Like a warren of rabbits upset by a gun.
At bong number two
They were all in a stew
Donning cap after slipper and throwing hose after shoe.
At bong number three
They were bare to the knee
Undoing the doings as fast as can be.
At bong number four
They bolted the door
And put on their nightshirts the wrong way before.
At bong number five
They were barely alive
And were bizzing and buzzing like bees in a hive.
At bong number six
In a terrible fix
They blew out the candles and snuffed out the wicks.
At bong number seven
From Durham to Devon
They slipped up a prayer to our father in heaven.
At bong number eight
It was fatal to weight
So with hearts all a beating at a terrible rate,
I need scarcely relate.
They jumped bang into bed like a bull at a gate.
And a good New Year to you, JM. I ought to have checked, but I thought it was short for “weeded”, which would make sense with flowers. The other verb is much used by my two year old granddaughter whenever anyone disappears into the bathroom. A loud announcement is made: Daddy/Granny/whoever wee!
Sipu, I expect it was felt that two teams singing “God save the Queen” at each other might be a bit odd, though as you say totally correct. To add another anthem could mean frostbite for the players standing still on a bad day at Murrayfield.
Thanks for your #28. Puts General Wolfe in a new light for me. I had always thought that his attitude to using Highlanders as soldiers was summed up by his assertion that “they are hardy, intrepid, accustomed to a rough country, and it is no great mischief if they fall.”
Thanks also for the explanation of the quote. Copy of ‘Kings and Queens of England’ duly purchased from Amazon.
I have just googled the place of the Chiefs of Clan Fraser in British military history, culminating, of course, with the 15th Lord Lovat of Pegasus Bridge fame – 17th by their reckoning since they obviously do not recognise the Act of Attainder on the 11th who, as you say, was the last man to get the chop in England.
I fear that the strain may be running to seed as I see that the present incumbent is a banker in Geneva. Although he did have the good sense to go to the university of Embra, to be fair.
JM, the present incumbent is actually, a very fine young man. The family suffered huge tragedies in the 90s when two of the son’s died, including the then Master who had a heart attack when hunting while his youngest brother was gored to death by a buffalo in Kenya. Their father, he of Pegasus Bridge fame, had transferred the estate to his eldest son, to avoid death duties. Sadly the Master was not the man his father was and lost virtually all, including Beaufort Castle which is now in the hands of Anne Gloag, co-founder of Bus Company Stage Coach. (Good for her.)The original Beaufort was destroyed by Cumberland’s men after Culloden. The 17th/15th Lovat died shortly afterwards of a broken heart. He was an extraordinary man. ( “the mildest mannered man that ever scuttled a ship or cut a throat”). His grandson says he is determined to buy back the estates, hence, perhaps his sojourn in Switzerland. So don’t be hard on him.
I recall some time ago you posted a picture of David Stirling, founder of the SAS . He and Lovat were first cousins. Lovat’s father had fomed the Lovat Scouts who fought in the Boer War, under the command of the American Major Frank Burnham, who was the man who taught Baden Powell all about Scouting. Burnham was one of the few survivors of the Shangani Patrol under Alan Wislon (another Scot) in Rhodesia in 1893. Burnham wrote a fascinating book called Scouting on Two Continents. RIder Haggard based his characters, especially Allan Quartermain on Burnham and Courtney Selous. The Lovat scouts have the distinction of being the first military unit to wear a Ghillie suit. My own grandfather fought with them in South Africa and Gallipoli.
Thanks JM for setting the record right regarding the demise of the House of Stewart – people tend to forget that Mary and Anne were James II’s daughters and were the only Protestant heirs and therefore the only acceptable candidates for the throne.
The Hanoverians were also, it is all too often forgotten, the only Protestant heirs and acceptable heirs of the Stewarts, George I being descended from James I’s daughter, Elizabeth.
In effect, we never got rid of the Stewarts.
But surely, you might as well say, we never got rid of the Tudors, seeing as it was Henry VII daughter Margaret who married James IV of Scotland giving his descendants, including Mary, Anne and the Georges, the claim to the throne?
To clarify the point I was making, by bringing William of Orange to the party, a new male line was being introduced. Not only that, William reigned as King, not as consort. The intention was to chuck out the male Stewart line. Does not really matter what the motives were. James II’s son, the Old Pretender, was the rightful heir, no question. Given the tradition of primogeniture, any son born to William and Mary would have succeeded to the throne and the name of Orange would have continued instead of Hanover.
Thus the mnemonic:
“No Plan Like Yours To Study History Wisely ”
would have ended up
“No Plan Like Yours To Study Oranges.”
Which has a nice ring to it.
(Norman, Plantagenet, Lancaster, York, Tudor, Stewart, Hanover, Windsor)