Evil, yes; no tears from me, but…

No man is an island entire of itself; every man

is a piece of the continent, a part of the main;

if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe

is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as

well as a manor of thy friends or of thine

own were; any man’s death diminishes me,

because I am involved in mankind.

And therefore never send to know for whom

the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.

John Donne

74 thoughts on “Evil, yes; no tears from me, but…”

  1. We need to take care not to lower standards to the lowest common denominator.

  3. I love this extract; like all of Donne’s work, it has an intensity and a purity. His poetry is like alchemy, like ‘gold to airy thinness beat’, expanding or shrinking the universe in the blink of an eye.

  5. Bravo.

    Culling? Hmm.

    So who decides? Bin Laden did a a fair amount of “culling”, don’t you think?

    I doubt you would agree that he had any sort of right on his side. I certainly don’t!

  6. Thank you Claire.

    I doubt I needed to attribute this extract; it is simply one of his best and most quoted. I love it too.

  7. Culling is directed. Indiscriminate slaughter is just that. If you want to confuse the two and moralise to yourself about terrorist murder, you go right ahead and worry about it all you wish – you might like to consider the matter of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin while you’re at it.

  8. by the way. Those of us who have actually heard the bell toll – as opposed to musing about such things over the bone china – are quite aware of what is signified.

  9. I know what it means, Bravo, but I query the term when applied to human beings.

    I think you are missing the point of this post. Were we right to kill him? And is his death something to cheer? I’d say a qualified yes to the the former, on the grounds of preventing more deaths, but no to the latter.

  10. bravo22c :

    by the way. Those of us who have actually heard the bell toll – as opposed to musing about such things over the bone china – are quite aware of what is signified.

    Ah, so only those who have served in Her Majesty’s Armed Forces are qualified to comment on such matters? I think not, Bravo.

  11. Minty: Hitler, Mussolini, Tojo, bin Laden, Hussein, Amin, usw were all deaths not worthy of mourning. This is a war, not a civil case. He was on the battle field and he was killed on the battle field — while using women as a shield to try to live another day. Those with this mentality launch missiles from schools and flats in order to make retaliation more difficult, these are the ones who cut a woman’s ears and nose off because she was tired of an abusive marriage, these are the critters that throw acid in the faces of young girls trying to get an education. Frankly, my dear, I don’t give a damn that he died the way he did.

  13. I agree with you, Christopher, as I said, no tears from me.

    I’m only slightly perturbed by the circumstances, but the reports in the press are changing every hour, which was why I qualified my yes.

  14. Bravo: Your point that we should not blur the facts with smoke and mirrors is a good one. Julie Burchill, a few years back, wrote something in the Guardian, attacking the left’s outcry against Iraq. It came as a shock to me at the time, to hear such a staunch left winger saying; cut the crap, you bunch of wimps would not even be able to live, breathe,have your very liberal freedoms, if this lot get a hold on us all. It was a bucket of water, you might say, over all the liberal, pacifist, peace loving Guardian readership of the day.
    Having said that, poetry lives and breathes with the fire of those who wrote it. To me, this meditative extract does not seek to justify or rationalise any wrong doer; it is simply a reminder of the transient and transcendental nature of our existence.

  15. No tears from me either, and I can make jokes along with the rest of the world – as I did on Christina’s post.

    I know that Osama was evil, that those who follow his way are also evil and that it is necessary to remove evil. Christopher has it right – those who live by the sword have no right to complain if they die by the sword.

    But when I looked at the screaming mobs with their placards in New York I had difficulty in seeing much difference between them and other screaming mobs elsewhere … it was not a comfortable feeling.

  16. Oh dear. I will say this as politely as I possibly can. I’m trying very hard, I promise.

    If it were ‘right’ to kill him [clarify socio-politico-religious semantic overtones of ‘right’ in this context], then cheering the removal of this enemy would follow as night follows day. It is human nature to applaud the achievement of that which is ‘right’.

    However, if cheering were wrong, then the killing was not ‘right’ [under any definition].

    Modern Western society wants it both ways. Private relief that the (nasty) Americans have eliminated a terrorist, but hypocritical weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth for the loss of a treasured human life to show how tolerant and compassionate we are.

    Bollocks. Eat or be eaten – and enjoy the meal.

  17. ‘Modern Western society wants it both ways. Private relief that the (nasty) Americans have eliminated a terrorist, but hypocritical weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth for the loss of a treasured human life to show how tolerant and compassionate we are.’
    I never thought of it like that, Bearsy, but perhaps you are right.
    It is like the hand wringing and the liberal agonising over Dresden. On the one hand you have people saying, well the Nazis would not have spared us, so get on with it, and on the other, you have people like me…
    I see this, as I do Dresden, as a dreadful, dark necessity. Something that had to be done to halt the spread of evil in the world and in our minds; certainly not something to take pleasure in, or to glorify.

  18. >Ah, so only those who have served in Her Majesty’s Armed Forces are qualified to comment on such matters? I think not, Bravo.<

    If that is what my post implied, then I apologise. It is precisely those who are not in HM Armed forces who should decide when those armed forces are to be used. It is the role of the armed forces to break things and kill people. What and whom is a matter for those who direct them, that is, you. (And me, now.) If you decide they should be employed, then moralising after the fact is mere vacuous posturing.

    And what Bearsy said.

    Personally, I’m cheering.

  19. PS. The bell tolling reference applied to the fact that some of us have actually wept through that sentiment for real. That’s all.

  20. Boadicea.

    Yes, I agree with most of your sentiments. I don’t know all the facts yet, and I daresay we may never know them. I just feel a little uneasy with the US incursion into Pakistan without the prior knowledge of the Government of that country, if this is what happened. As I said to Christopher, the circumstances when I last read the reports in the press were somewhat confusing.

    But when I looked at the screaming mobs with their placards in New York I had difficulty in seeing much difference between them and other screaming mobs elsewhere … it was not a comfortable feeling.

    Precisely my thoughts, which was the main reason for writing this post!

  21. Exactly, Bravo (#18).

    Claire – I shall have to go all religious again – “fight the good fight” and “celebrate the triumph of good over evil”. Those Old Testament guys knew what was what. “Smite them hip and thigh”.

    🙂

  22. Bravo, I did take your comment to imply just that, but thank you for the clarification and the apology.

    I didn’t direct the US to go into Pakistan and kill Bin Laden so I don’t think questioning the deed after the fact is vacuous moralising or posturing at all. I do take your point though, and I have already said that I think his removal was necessary.

    But no, I’m not cheering.

  23. Bearsy.

    I think you have been remarkably polite, which I appreciate. I’m not ignoring you, but I’m having a problem with your somewhat convoluted logic.

    I think I get your point, but I think I may well have addressed most your points in my comments to others.

    I think Boadicea’s comment #15, particularly the last paragraph explains how I feel about it remarkably well.

  24. Araminta

    I believe that the US has ‘arrangements’ with Pakistan to ‘just’ go in. Moreover, it seems fairly clear from the little I’ve read that if the US had told Pakistan what it was doing the ‘bird’ would have flown yet again.

    I think there will be some very hard questions being asked behind some very tightly sealed doors about just what part the Security Services in Pakistan have played (or not played) in helping to deal with terrorists.

    The Western Powers are going to have to make a pretty good case to their electorate for continuing to send their tax-payer’s money to Pakistan. Don’t expect to know the ‘Truth’ for another 30 or so years…

    Claire

    Your comment about the ‘bucket of water’ is a good one. We do need to remember what we are dealing with.

    Nonetheless, I think we also need to remember Donne’s sentiments. Soutie made a comment about the deaths of Gaddafi’s grand-children. We may be right in killing the likes of Osama, but we should not forget to mourn those caught up in the collateral damage through no fault of their own.

  26. My logic convoluted? Jeez!
    You have created a (wholly unnecessary) conflict within your soul, but you call me convoluted?
    Wanders off to get breakfast, shaking head … 😎

  28. Good riddance that the man has gone, yes it is right to kill him rather than stick him in prison where some bleeding hearts will say he has reformed and lawyers will get filthy rich defending him and his rights.

    However the scenes in the US of people partying etc is not good, it will inflame the situation even more and make him into a martyr. By all means let the people breathe a sigh of relief but what I saw was a mob that behaved no better than the muslims they so hate.

  29. Rick

    I couldn’t agree more about killing the man outright rather than having a trial circus and either executing him or sticking him in prison. There are times when a verdict of ‘notorious guilt’ should be sufficient.

    I’m pleased to know that someone else understands my discomfort at the scenes in the US.

  31. Thanks, Rick.

    I agree with you and Boadicea in this instance. Notorious guilt is sufficient, although I wouldn’t normally advocate this solution.

  34. And maybe they’re right. But it’s a strange reflection on where we’re now at, isn’t it! The world economy remains in tatters, and nothing’s been done about climate change. The US is embroiled in three foreign wars, with unemployment soaring and austerity measures looming.

    In the midst of all that, there’s crowds on the street celebrating not a medical breakthrough or a scientific discovery or a healthcare program, but an extrajudicial killing in a foreign country.

    Especially the concluding paragraph.

  37. Boa: Absolutely. Collateral damage is always the outcome of war, which is why I view war as a necessary evil in this case.
    Bearsy: yes…you do well to remind me of that. That is the Old Testament speaking; that which stands ‘ready to smite once and smite no more’ (Milton). But is not the whole point of Christianity the New Testament, that which tells us to turn the other cheek, and ‘look homeward now/ and melt with ruth’? (again, Milton). Just a thought.

  38. Claire

    And the meek shall inherit the earth…

    Six foot of it – or in my case five feet two inches!

  40. Araminta and Boadicea: yes, I was also somewhat disconcerted by how many people began celebrating this on the street as they did. It’s too crass, too tacky. It should not be made a patriotic point. It makes those Americans look as bad as those Arabs who celebrate whenever an Israeli cafe is attacked or there is a tragedy in the West.

  41. I thought long and hard about this.

    OBL wrote his own death warrant and in using his family as a shield decided their fate too. I have absolutely no problem with any of that.

    The NY hooting and a hollering gave me a sense of unease. I thought at first that they should be more restrained. Relief that the evil sod is dead fine, but joy?

    I wonder what I would feel if some politician grew a pair and ordered the execution of Gerry Adams for example. Justice? Definitely. The continued arse kissing and the fact that he is allowed to draw expense money from my taxes is a complete insult. But would I be cartwheeling in the streets? I doubt it.

    Then I thought of the hag Thatcher and those nice, shiny shoes I keep highly bulled ready to dance on the bitches grave. I suppose the Bear has a point, if it is decided that the killing is right, then the hand wringing and self loathing post dispatch is just hypocrisy.

  42. I don’t see the connection between celebrating a deliberate terrorist attack on innocents with celebrating the elimination of the creature who was responsible for the deaths of 3,000 odd people and the constant reminder of that fact to the people of New York through the gaping hole where the twin towers used to be. I say that conflating such events is an example of the moral ambiguity that nourishes terrorists across the globe.

    Crass? Tacky? Catharsis, perhaps.

    I didn’t direct the US to go into Pakistan and kill Bin Laden so I don’t think questioning the deed after the fact is vacuous moralising or posturing at all. I do take your point though, and I have already said that I think his removal was necessary.

    ‘I think his ‘removal’* was necessary…’I didn’t direct the US to go into Pakistan and kill (him)…’

    You don’t see a smidgen of contradiction here, then?

    * ‘removal,’ how exquisitely squeamish. At least have the grace to call a spade a spade, if you can’t bring yourself to call it a ” -in’ shovel.”

  43. I knew there was a Tull app quote for that:

    But if you say, you can still pass the violations over, then I ask, hath your house been burnt? Hath your property been destroyed before your face? Are your wife and children destitute of a bed to lie on, or bread to live on? Have you lost a parent or a child by their hands, and yourself the ruined and wretched survivor? If you have not, then are you not a judge of those who have. But if you have, and can still shake hands with the murderers, then are you unworthy the name of husband, father, friend or lover, and whatever may be your rank or title in life, you have the heart of a coward, and the spirit of a sycophant. . .Thomas Paine, ‘Common Sense’

  44. In haste, but back later.

    Bravo.

    I like your Thomas Paine quotation and the intentional or unintentional irony. As I am sure you are aware, Paine was on the side of the Revolting Colonists fighting again the beastly tyranny of the British Government!

  45. Hello Araminta,

    Nice poem, reminded me this verse;
    “On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person – unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land – it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.” (5:32)

    And about Laden and the like (killing the innocent), I always remember this one:
    “Say: “Shall I seek for (my) Lord other than Allah, when He is the Cherisher of all things (that exist)? Every soul draws the meed of its acts on none but itself: no bearer of burdens can bear of burdens can bear the burden of another. Your return in the end is towards Allah. He will tell you the truth of the things wherein ye disputed.”

  46. Levent

    I understand your first verse. The Jewish Talmud, Sanhedrin 37a, states:

    Whoever destroys a soul, it is considered as if he destroyed an entire world. And whoever saves a life, it is considered as if he saved an entire world.

    I do not understand your second quote.

    Whatever – I’m not a Christian, a Jew or a Muslim, and I’m not certain about a Life and Judgement in the Hereafter. I am inclined to think that whatever problems there are in this Life it’s up to us to sort out… and we just sorted out One Big Problem.

    🙂

  47. Its about time the bleeding hearts accepted that the tide of yooman rights bolleaux (credits OZ) is on the ebb.

    Individuals must be held accountable for their actions and also their lack of said.

    OBL removed himself from the list of those deserving of consideration by his deeds, any family who stood by the murdering scum, did so of their own volition. If his shield of a wife had a single ounce of yoomanity then she could have offed the bastard as he slept. No sympathy and good riddance.

  48. Hello Boadicea,
    🙂

    Like the first one, I have heard years a go a verse from bible (in Turkish) saying the same with the second. Something like “the teeth of the sons do not set on edge because of the sour grapes their fathers had eaten”
    The second verse is the base of an arch argument of the Islamic scholars. It says you cannot blame one because of the fault of another even if from the same root (collective responsibility) family, nation etc. The example given for this one is , yo cannot sink a ship full of 999 evil men and one innocent. (This is called adalet-i tam, roughly trasnlates absolute justice) and theere is a group saying that chosing the lesser evil (adalet-i izafi= relative justice). But none gives persmission to kill innocents whatever the reason/cause.

    And I’m not sure a problem is sorted. I truly wish so, though.

  49. Ferret

    I wish that WordPress gave us a button for “I Like Your Comment” – if it did I would have pressed it for your #47 🙂

    I’m a great believer in ‘yooman rights’ – but only for those who have respected the ‘yooman rights’ of others. Step outside the boundaries of acceptable behaviour – take the consequences.

  50. Levent

    I think your Turkish translation of the Bible is somewhat imaginative! I may not be a Christian, but I was brought up in the ‘tradition’ with a fair knowledge of what the Bible says – and I can’t say that I’ve ever heard anything like you quote. I think the concept of the piece I quoted is (and should be) part of any religion that purports to raise people to a better way of life.

    I was going to say that it is unfortunate that Islam – but I’m going to revise that to say that I think it is disastrous that Islam is seen to be a religion that does not follow the concept of your second quote, i.e. that innocents should not be killed.

    It’s hardly surprising that Islam is not seen as a peaceful religion since so many of its followers seem to preach that it really doesn’t matter who is killed… We non-Muslims are (now) more than a little sceptical of those who tell us that Islam is Peaceful… Far too many Muslims want to wipe us off the face of the earth.

    You are not sure that the problem is solved? I’m absolutely certain that the problem is not solved. All that the death of Osama has shown is that the USA, like the Canadian Mounties, will always get their man… There are still far too many Osama look-alikes out there for my peace of mind.

  51. Boadicea,

    I know this will be a repeat. Yet again.

    The first tradition (you may see in his last cermon) Prophet (pbuh) he abolished is blood libel, you can still find it common in ME.

    I know an Islamic community here in Turkey. The leader/founder has strictly (on numerous times in written form) forbid his followers to touch/get involved in politics. (because religion cannot take sides, and should be above politics) Only once he wrote to PM a letter saying that he is praying for them and made some warnings about the daily life. Guess what, after his death some of the “followers” started taking part in politics.

    Islam does not deny human nature (turn the other cheek). Fighting and violence is in human psyche. There will be always wars. Actually it draws the lines.

    Like fire, knife, religion is a powerful tool. If one wants to use it at his own end, and if there are no official establishment around, şf there is poverty and ignorance. And if there are occupiers around you have the most powerful prescription.

    Another point is you say, “a better way of life”. According to whom? Which values?

  52. I was wrong. I thought things would be easing up a bit by now but it’s getting manic again so not many pearls of wisdom dropping from my full, luscious lips. Did you see what I did there?

    Cast your minds back to when Sadam was hanged, courtesy of you tube and someone with a mobile phone. The images shown did not exactly put the human race in a good light and although you may have hated or detested the bloke, the scenes shown upset a lot of people who did.

    As for Bin Laden, why is it that the Americans win the battle and then lose the peace. Hats off to the grunts on the ground and a life changing call by Obama. The first reports said he was armed and sheltering behind a wife, he refused to put down his weapon and was shot, job done. Instead of just leaving it at that, the story now starts to change so that he ends up sitting in his favourite armchair, snmoking a pipe, warming his slippers by the fire and litening to BBC rest match special with a grandchild balanced on each knee before being executed by a death squad. Why do the Americans feel they have to pander to the desire of the slavering masses to show them a body, sod ’em would be my mantra, Bin laden’s associates will know he’s gone when he stops calling them up. And before anyone says I’ve missed the point, spot on, I’ve not had time to immerse myself in this with you, but it’s my three pennerth anyway.

  55. Araminta, I don’t see what that has to do with the price of fish. old Tom wrote a lot that I agree with, particularly on government – including, as it happens, monarchy as it was then constituted.

  56. Furry One.

    Your comment #41.

    Thank you for your considered comment. You make some very valid points.

    I am aware of the strength of your loathing with regard to Thatcher, but I don’t think she can really be compared to Bin Laden; well not by the majority of us anyway, but I said no tears and there is no self-loathing or hypocrisy, but equally no dancing in the streets or celebration. A degree of satisfaction or relief that the evil man responsible for such atrocities has been removed from the planet perhaps, yes!

  58. Minty MBE,

    On a personal, and purely selfish,level. The hag Thatcher has done me and my nearest far more grief than OBL ever achieved.

    But my basic point still stands, to me and my compadres Gerry Adams is every bit as evil as Bin Laden ever was. For some reason, one gets the 5.56mm ventilation upgrade (for Bravo, double tap to the skull (a spade being a manually operated terrain relocation asset after all)) while the other gets a life of riley out of my wages. Go figure.

    If they did grow a pair and put that bearded scumbag up against the wall I would be pleased. But I don’t see myself dancing in the street.

  59. Hello, Levent.

    Good to see you, and your comments are much appreciated.

    Like fire, knife, religion is a powerful tool. If one wants to use it at his own end, and if there are no official establishment around, şf there is poverty and ignorance. And if there are occupiers around you have the most powerful prescription.

    Another point is you say, “a better way of life”. According to whom? Which values?

    A very good point. Thank you for the links too. I’ll explore later.

  60. OMG.

    No, I don’t think you’ve missed the point at all. Your reminder about the Sadam episode is valid.

    I’m also in agreement with your second paragraph. I haven’t read the latest version from the US but the story seems to be changing on an hourly basis. It doesn’t exactly inspire confidence!

  62. Thank you Minty MBE,

    I suppose the best way I can describe my personal view would be ‘Good riddance to bad rubbish!’.

    I think those spams who were dancing and cheering were simply gripped by the standard US over-exuberance bug. They do seem to have a tendency to overegg the pudding. Colonials can be such an embarrasment at times. 😉

  63. What the final story is is beside the point, a bit.* As is the point about Sadam, who was, after all, executed by his own, innit? Not that I particularly care what happened to him, either, but I did make the point at the time that, however much of a sadistic bastard he was, he died well.

    Agree entirely about Adams, Ferret – and his sidekick McGuiness, two people who I would dearly love to meet in a dark alley on a foggy night – though, given my own current state of play, not both at once and preferably with a bit of back-up 🙂

    * A summary from a US, right-of-centre site I also frequent, in case anyone is interested:

    Meanwhile, details of the operation begin to leak out. First Osama bin Laden was armed and was shielded by his youngest wife, who was wounded. Now the buzz is that he was not armed and the woman in the story was his 12 year old daughter, who was in fact wounded. There is no word about her teddy bear. The latest stories are of the President’s decisiveness, but no one has decided to release the pictures of bin Laden. There are leaks about the operation, yet for months the entire operation was kept a strict secret without leaks. The President was decisive, yet there was no decision for months. This complex operation was carried out quickly and decisively, meaning that it required a great deal of planning and some preparation, but the ISI got no warning, or if it did, none of that leaked to bin Laden. Bin Laden was unsuspecting and his guards were armed — there was a fire fight — so presumably he could have made a run for it had he had ten minutes warning, so presumably he had no such warning. Surely his security team had a contingency plan for what to do if the word came through that the safe house was compromised.

    There were weeks of planning. They had a Muslim cleric present to do funeral rites, yet no one decided in advance what to do with the photographs of the body. He was buried at sea with Muslim ritual, rather than sewn in a pigskin sack after being greased with pork lard, yet there are no photographs of the ritual. The Times of India had a photograph of the dead body — you could see it on the link I posted yesterday morning — but it is gone now, and best information is that it was a fake. http://www.euronews.net/2011/05/02/
    dead-bin-laden-photo-is-a-fake/

    Now there are no photographs anywhere. Why? Surely he is dead. Why are there no photographs of the dead body? Surely he is not actually in a CIA safe house being interrogated? Surely there is not a water board in his future?

    So Pakistan didn’t know where he was, or who was in that oddly sealed mansion; Pakistan didn’t take any part in the operation, but two US helicopters flew across hundreds of miles of Pakistan to assault a house in Pakistan’s military retirement city, lost one, refueled the other, and returned to the sea without any surveillance by Pakistani air assets or even by a local police helicopter. Bin Laden could have escaped with ten minutes warning, but he made no attempt to do so. This was considered for months in the White House, but nothing leaked out to the press. The photos are too gruesome to be released, but release is still being considered. No one is doing any alterations of the photographs, but we still want to think about whether or not to release them.

    And so it goes. My head isn’t working very well, but this all seems very odd to me. Of course much of it is the usual confusion that happens just after an operation of this sort, but things are getting more confused, not settling out. Very strange. And the White House is tweaking the story a bit. More to come.

    http://www.jerrypournelle.com/view/2011/Q2/view673.html

  64. OMG,

    My peronal joy at seeing the despot Hussain on the end of a rope was tempered by the certain knowledge that we were about to be saddled with baby sitting duties for decades to come.

  65. Hee Hee Bravo,

    I reckon I could have Adams. Slip up behind the scumbag, heel of the palm firmly on that bearded glas jaw, generous application of rotational force and snap! Job done.

    Or perhaps the up front and personal approach, a bang stick under the chin as you look the filthy vermin in the eye.

  66. It’s becoming a farce, Bravo. I don’t think it is irrelevant; it is germane to the topic under discussion.

    Thanks for the quote.

    Furry One.
    Speaking of colonial cousins, I saw this earlier:

    Link here.

    We have to be very careful about our response to the killing of Osama bin Laden. The West was appalled and deeply offended by the street celebrations in Tehran and elsewhere after 9/11, but how do rednecks in Washington DC chanting “USA! USA!” after the shooting of Osama and other members of his household compare with that? And what’s this talk of “justice” having been done? I thought justice in the West was being arraigned for trial and judged on evidence. This was summary execution and, while it may have been necessary or forced by circumstance, it’s hardly grounds for rejoicing.

  67. Minty MBE,

    NO!!!!!!!!!

    That is just plain wrong. That woosebag Pitcher is exactly the type of bleeding heart, holier than thou, do as I say not as I do, sanctimonious piece of hippopotamus guano that I am on about.

    Rejoicing the indiscriminate slaughter of innocent civilians (I include the dambusters raid among that) is just plain wrong. This was the surgical, and targetted removal of one very nasty lowlife and perhaps the scum who helped shield him from justice. Totally different scenario.

    The first part of paparazzi is pap. And this particular piece is one of the smelliest examples of it.

  71. >how do rednecks in Washington DC chanting “USA! USA!” after the shooting of Osama and other members of his household compare with that? <

    That's an easy one. The former celebrated the killing of thousands of innocents, the latter the killing of the person responsible. I'll drink to that. (The pejorative, btw, betrays the leanings of the writer. I'm sure that there were, at most, no more than a couple of 'rednecks' in those crowds.)

    Simples. (h/t Ferret.)

    And the case of SH is entirely irrelevant.

    Ah, Ferret, but you are a couple of years younger than I – mind, since Adams or McGuiness wouldn’t know me from any other face…

  72. Tssk Tssk Bravo,

    The quote is “seemples”. Now write it out 500 times before breakfast or I’ll cut yer balls off. 🙂

  73. bravo22c :

    Araminta, I don’t see what that has to do with the price of fish. old Tom wrote a lot that I agree with, particularly on government – including, as it happens, monarchy as it was then constituted.

    Sorry, Bravo, I missed this earlier.
    I wasn’t being entirely serious, but I was amused by your choice. Old Tom drew extensively from the Bible (OT by the sound of this one) for much of his inspiration, and I know how you feel about religion. It struck me also that the Revolting Colonials, no offence intended, are now flexing their muscles with us it tow, and very much in second place, against the Revolting Terrorists.

  74. Ole Tom drew extensively from the bible, the bible drew extensively from Egyptian and Babylonian mythology, then there was the Hammurabi code… So what?

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