Home > General > Why is David Cameron so desperate to get us involved in Syria ?

Why is David Cameron so desperate to get us involved in Syria ?

It’s not as if everyone and his brother isn’t already involved and I don’t see what we could bring to the party.

The only conclusion that I could come to was that dave wants to big himself up on the world stage.

He gets more like Blair every day.

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Categories: General
  1. November 24, 2015 at 3:36 pm

    Maybe something to do with the UN’s unanimous vote the other day?

  2. November 24, 2015 at 4:03 pm

    Doesn’t alter anything.

  3. November 24, 2015 at 6:46 pm

    You raise so many issues. I presume you just feel like a rant! 😬

  4. christinaosborne
    November 24, 2015 at 7:23 pm

    Tend to agree on the surface, self aggrandisement is the hallmark of both of them.
    But then all sorts of other old issues creep in too.

    1. Lets face it the frogs got in there like knives! Seem to be doing a good job too, no ifs or buts. One must remember that they really are one of our oldest enemies, we always liked to fight them, we all knew where we were! If we didn’t fight we had to compete instead. Now they are making us look like a bunch of lilylivered vacillating shilly shallying cowards. Now our Dave can’t have that can he?

    2. The bears and the frogs always were great friends way back to the 16th century apart from the Napoleonic aberration. The British always resented the relationship and did their best to upset it any way they could. Look at the trade missions of the 1600s/1700s. I don’t suppose it sits too well with the Tory govt even now.

    3. NATO doesn’t help. Does it ever? Come on lets re-fight the cold war through proxy!

    4. One sees the Ottoman Empire getting a re-run. Turkey must be grinning all over its backside after this morning. Howzat for payback of the Balkan Wars? (Pre 1914) Let alone being technically correct. Their airspace must have been violated for all of a couple of minutes according to the maps! Hands up who thinks Turkey isn’t part of the Ottoman Empire still and just biding its time? They ought to be thanking the Russians for removing thorns in their flesh but what the hell, extra payback for 1918!!)

    These are just a few of the conflicts that come to mind out of the ether without reference to Wiki etc. No doubt one could find a lot more grudges and grievances on all sides if one poked about a bit!
    As usual America doesn’t really understand what is going on here, this is ‘tribal’ Europe at its zenith!
    What I find particularly interesting is how tribal we all still are and should this finally blow’ God help the ragheads caught up in the West, it will make the persecution of the Jews last time round look like a dress rehearsal.

    Maybe, just maybe. Revelations was right after all. There is an awful lot of writing appearing on the wall, not quite clear enough to read yet in my opinion, time will tell.

    So, I think our Dave is having a convulsive knee jerk reaction to rather a lot of concurrent situations in an unacknowledged historical setting.

  5. christinaosborne
    November 24, 2015 at 7:24 pm

    PS A good rant gets the blood flowing, I’m off to stab my Christmas cakes! (To infuse with brandy!)

  6. O Zangado
    November 25, 2015 at 12:18 am

    I was slightly amused yet muchly sickened to see little Hollande doing that ‘front-of-hands-forwards, balls swinging free’ march on the White House terrace with the incumbent POTUS just like Bl-iar did with Dubya. Better for Francois, I suppose, garnering some reflected kudos than yapping around Europe as the strangely absent Fuererin’s poodle.

    OZ

  7. November 25, 2015 at 1:38 am

    . . . or even Führerin, perhaps? 🙂

  8. November 25, 2015 at 6:24 am

    CO, yes, what’s happened to NATO? I can’t remember: Is France still in or still out? Ditto Turkey.

    I believe Dave is acutely aware that he shouldn’t repeat the Bliar/Dubya love-in – but so is Obama! Die Fuhrerin meanwhile is lost for words, methinks; there is no capital to be made from standing next to Hollande. And did anybody in the EU plutocracy speak? Of course not. Their understanding of the politics is similarly lacking.

  9. christinaosborne
    November 25, 2015 at 8:06 am

    Both in NATO, currently.
    It is pretty bloody obvious that Obama almost has to hold his nose whilst communicating with our Dave. No friend of ours but then one must presume that his father inculcated an early dislike being an ex colonial himself, no love lost by the ex African colonies for the UK. More history one wonders?

  10. christinaosborne
    November 25, 2015 at 8:10 am

    Ref 4 above, my estimate of 2 minutes was way out, 17 seconds buys death from the ragheads, Turkish version. Well well.

  11. O Zangado
    November 25, 2015 at 8:37 am

    Sorry, Sir. I haven’t found out how to do umlauts on this keyboard yet and I missed the ‘h’ in the dark. Got the feminine of Fuehrer right though, so there is hope. 🙂

    It is ironic to see our politicos hypocritically honking about defence cuts, something they have all actively pursued for years, once the guano hits the aircon yet again. For example, in the past decade our glorious leaders have given away all the Harriers to the Septics so that ten years hence we can buy some expensive replacement from, er, the Septics and in 2010 all our Nimrods were scrapped too, even the new ones that had never flown. We now apparently rely on the Frogs for maritime reconnaisance until such time as we can buy some sneaky-beaky derivative of the ageing 737 from, guess who, the Septics.

    And don’t even get me started on the leader in Westminster of the Jockanese Nazionalists wanting to scrap Trident

    OZ

  12. christinaosborne
    November 25, 2015 at 8:52 am

    Well it is a good thing they haven;t got any planes as our Dave wants to use what he does have to support Turkey!!! Why not save us the bother and just bomb the place.
    God almighty, support the ragheads against the Russians who are white and Christian over 17 seconds???!!!
    Thank heavens tomorrow is Thanksgiving, eat a turkey instead.
    .

  13. November 25, 2015 at 9:02 am

    I noted last week that Africa-bound Pope thought the Xmas charades were inappropriate in the present ‘climate’. I tend to agree and wonder what the ever-unaware Yanks can find to be thankful for. Answer: the fabulous Donald Trump, their nextmad mogul.

  14. November 25, 2015 at 9:03 am

    OZ, I can do umlauts on the laptop but not the cell.

  15. sheona
    November 25, 2015 at 10:12 am

    Happy Thanksgiving, Christina.

  16. November 25, 2015 at 10:23 am

    This is becoming dangerous. Turkey a NATO member shoots down a Russian jet with US made F16s. Russia sends warships to the Med and Idiot Dave deploys 12 RAF Typhoon fighters.
    It’s not comfortable living in a country governed by idiots.

  17. November 25, 2015 at 3:17 pm

    It’s comforting that the Euro is getting a Pounding. 💷

  18. November 25, 2015 at 5:58 pm

    CO: you grasped a point that is pulling Turkey to civil war. In the final years of the Ottoman Empire there was a rift between Turkish nationalists who admitted that the Ottoman Empire had run its course and that there was no point in trying to preserve what was left. Shunt the Arabs and their tribal hatreds aside and focus on modernising and strengthening the Turkish heart of the Ottoman Empire — Anatolia and Ottoman loyalists who wanted to restore the glories of the Ottoman Past. After the First World War the modernisers led by Mustafa Kemal won out and dominated Turkish politics until 2000. They turned Turkey into the only semi-modern Muslim state by breaking the back of religion and restricting Islam’s influence in public life while banning it entirely in politics. Since 2000 the AKP, led by Erdogan, have gradually re-Islamised public life and have encouraged the re-introduction of political Islam. Turkish Kemalists have been warning the West for years with increasing ferocity about the dangers emanating from Ankara but Western leaders have not only ignored them, but have actually encouraged the AKP’s policies as a test-run of a seemingly “modern” Islamist movement. It has blown up in their face and we now have the Neo-Ottomans firmly in charge and using the EU and NATO as their pets to advance their interests. Kemalists, recognising the danger of the AKP and the desperate position of the secular, forward-looking Republic of Turkey have admitted that a civil war is brewing and after the last, crooked, election it is only becoming a matter of “when”, not “if”. As for Obama, his father was a Communist and general loser who blamed everyone but himself for being a failure and absentee parent. He had no problem impregnating women but couldn’t be asked to actually raise children in a responsible manner! Obama’s grandfather was the village drunk who was dismissed from a colonial civil service position for general incompetence and coming to work in a stupor on a near-daily basis.Obama lied about this and claimed that he was a Mau Mau and was tortured. Obama was raised by Communists and Muslims — don’t believe anything he says. The chances are near-certain that it will be a lie.

    I agree on supporting Russia over Turkey. Russia is Russia, but they’re still not part of what is fundamentally an enemy civilisation. Turkey was to a large extent made a NATO-member to secure its Westernised political establishment. With its increasingly anti-Western bent, there is no point in supporting them.

  19. christinaosborne
    November 25, 2015 at 6:07 pm

    Well for once I”m spot on, re 4 above. Found this in the Telegraph this morning. The Armenian massacre rises its ugly head one more time!

    “Russian news agency RIA Novosti reports that Russian deputies have submitted a bill to hold to account anyone who denies the Armenian genocide.

    This is rather unsubtle dig to Turkey – who deny that the 1915 massacres constitute a genocide. It is believed this lasted until 1917 and led to 1.5 million Armenians killed – a figure Turkey disputes, putting the figure at 300,000 to 600,000.

    In total, 18 countries accept the massacres as genocide, including Germany, Greece, and France.”

    Really this EU crap is terribly dangerous, a group madness that willfully denies our own human tribal atavistic instincts, however deeply bedded in national psyches, is going to get us into some really terrible trouble in the not too distant future.
    One has to suppose payback for a hundred year old event is current events, not history!

  20. christinaosborne
    November 25, 2015 at 6:13 pm

    Christopher, exactly and succinctly put!
    They should be removed from NATO along with othe rmuslim infested rat holes like Albania!
    Balkan muslim states are only included in NATO to provide a prevarication to Russia by the West, a stupid childish gesture likely to backfire in a very bad way.

  21. November 25, 2015 at 6:13 pm

    Mr Mc Donell made a similar aside today in parliament when commenting to G.Osborne’s budget, saying that the first prupose is to be in the limelight, I as well see that a bit the same way, with a lot of pinches of salt and in reality the comment of a politician, who is in a corner, because he really has not got anything worthwhile to contribute to the party.

  22. November 25, 2015 at 6:30 pm

    CO: the Ottoman Empire was collapsing during the First World War — much like the Austro-Hungarian Empire. The Turks and Armenians had been blood-enemies for centuries prior to this and both sides took any chance they could to kill each other. In the climate of that era, the Ottomans were destroying all perceived enemies — especially those in their midst. It was, clearly, a genocide. At that time there was a mass movement of Armenians to California. Even today there are millions of people in the state with names ending in -ian or -yan. Balkan Muslims are just the fifth columnists the Ottomans left behind. The Albanians were chosen to be the traitor people, the Europeans who had their membership in European civilisation bred out of them. They were also the “enforcers” — whose who brutalised Europeans who remained loyal to their civilisation, not “the religion of (blown in) piece”(s).

  23. christinaosborne
    November 25, 2015 at 6:43 pm

    Kardashian comes to mind!
    They all seem to bring their perversions/banditry with them,, bred in the bone one supposes?
    The Albanians have been bandits for centuries, still are. You should see the car washes of industrial South Wales, a new milieu for their devilry and machinations. I had the misfortune to see it all at first hand this autumn. A girlfriend of mine has taken up with one. I had to beat a hasty retreat! Contamination by association, no thank you! Found a pressing need to be elsewhere.

  24. November 25, 2015 at 6:55 pm

    CO: generally I like Armenians. They rarely cause problems and the Kardashians aren’t really qualified to represent the species, much less Armenians. In California they became excellent farmers and helped make the Central Valley a pleasant place until it was wrecked by drugs and “Progressive” policies. Albanians were sought out because they are bandits. In Germany officials hated dealing with them and couldn’t wait to return them to Kosovo and Albania after the civil wars in the Balkans calmed down. They, practically over night, took over red light districts in Germany and naturally resorted to their ancient tradition of human trafficking to under-cut their (legal) competition’s prices and destroy them. In the anti-Serbian hysteria of the late 1990s-early 2000s what was generally ignored by Western luvvies — especially in the press — is that Serbian Christians had been on the receiving end of genocidal practices and attacks by Albanians Muslims for generations and whatever Serbs did to them was only a fraction of what they had dealt with. The only difference was that the Serbians were quicker in their ferocity.

  25. November 25, 2015 at 8:30 pm

    CO, Christopher – A run through world history?? I met some people from Serbia, who would love to join you in that, as they like very much to revert back to thier old times until the Schlacht auf dem Amselfeld, when they were beatne by the otoman empire…. I don’t really know, how much we can still take on board from these times…I did really not like history very much at school, because it was focused on so many battles, migrations and wars long gone, now with this we seem to jump from one country to the other. What is the message?

  26. christinaosborne
    November 25, 2015 at 11:22 pm

    What is the message?

    Generally that there is nothing new under the sun! If you want to know what happens next one can generally find it in the history books, It generally has happened before.

  27. November 26, 2015 at 1:01 am

    FoE: Germans, to their credit, rarely hold onto historical grudges. Bad things happen on all sides, try to learn lessons and then move on.But you can’t expect for others to do the same. In Albania a fundamental part of their social ethics are Gjakmarrja (blood feud) and Hakmarrja (revenge). There are thousands and thousands of blood feuds being waged in Albania — some over 500 years old! I’ve dealt with Native Americans who have been involved in blood feuds for over a thousand years. Arab clans have been in blood feuds that date back to pre-Islamic times. We’re now involved with a protracted conflict in the Middle East and we have to understand how these societies work. We are not dealing with Swedes and Danes with their good-natured rivalry.

  28. November 26, 2015 at 9:25 am

    christinaosborne
    Really this EU crap is terribly dangerous, a group madness that willfully denies our own human tribal atavistic instincts, however deeply bedded in national psyches, is going to get us into some really terrible trouble in the not too distant future.
    One has to suppose payback for a hundred year old event is current events, not history!

    Says it all.

    Why is it that the highly educated folk who govern us don’t get this ?

    Or is it because they’re highly educated ?

  29. November 26, 2015 at 10:33 am

    Christopher – interesting comparison, I think you are right, this is really the rift between us (civilised) and the rest who rather tries to live their atavistic instincts as CO expresses it. I certainly have made my mind up, that I am rather living inside the EU crap than for example being “hung down a bridge”, because I am an enemy of people with atavistic instincts. The “hung down a bdrige” refers to the latest movie I have watched, called SICARIO, really horrible, but on the other hand a very valid portrait of customs in a not so civilised society.
    CO – I assume, you will respond to me saying: but we do not need EU crap, such that this does not happen to us. You might be right, it could be less control, but rather a bit of EU crap (and control) and David Cameron/Barack Obama/Mrs Merkel, than living in an atavistic society. People there will learn, I am convinced, but certainly with the ‘right help on all fronts’. Isn’t it interesting, that hardly anybody migrates into one of these ‘atavistic’ countries, whereas they want to immigrate into our space??
    Jazz: All politicians are elected by us, do you prefer to ‘GO BACK’ to a rather non-democratic environment or if not, why don’t you volunteer to become Prime MInister?

  30. November 26, 2015 at 11:29 am

    frauohneeigenschaften

    “….I think you are right, this is really the rift between us (civilised) and the rest who rather tries to live their atavistic instincts as CO expresses it…”

    Believe me the atavistic instincts will win in the end, and the further we distort them the more violent and unpleasant will be the ‘correction’.
    Nature always triumphs.

  31. November 26, 2015 at 2:16 pm

    But, Jazz, nature doesn’t improve with being uneducated. Look at Trump, Bush and the N Korean dwarf.

  32. November 26, 2015 at 4:39 pm

    FoE: It has little to do with being “civilised” or “uncivilised” and much to do with national character — individual differences, of course, being duly noted. Germans, as I’ve said, tend to prefer moving on and not dwell on past grievances. In Wales, Scotland, Ireland,Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal, etc.memories are long and feuds can be much, much deeper — let’s not even start on Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, Croatia, Poland, etc. I strongly disagree that the EU is necessary. Rather, I argue that the EU will destroy itself and poison the well in the process of its self-destruction. What good has it really done? Develop a currency that has destroyed half the continent? The myth of “frugal” and “efficient” northerners versus “lazy” and “shiftless” southerners which has become nearly religion in Northern Europe is utterly wrong and relies on a fundamental inability to grasp economics. Austria and Germany can function on a common currency because they’re so economically similar and integrated. If they want to hear it or not, the UK and Ireland could function well on a common currency and have done so in the past. Really, until the 1970s the Irish Pound was in practise merely a variant of the British Pound. But you can’t expect Austria and Ireland to function on the same currency in the same way you can’t expect Italy and Germany to be similar enough economically for it to work. As usual, political fantasies won the day and now there is a destroyed generation and many of the hatreds not seen since the years immediately after the war have resurfaced with violent force. Now, Merkel’s delusions about “poor refugees” have caused the same rifts to emerge between Eastern Europe and Western Europe. No, the European Community worked for the continent but the EU will destroy it yet again. We would have been better off without it and the mass influx has more to do with getting money, which Europe has had for centuries before the EU was spawned by political incest, than any “ideal”.

  33. November 26, 2015 at 4:40 pm

    Janus: Bush was actually better-educated than Clinton, Gore and Obama.

  34. christinaosborne
    November 26, 2015 at 4:46 pm

    Education has nothing to do with intelligence and IQ. Any fool with money can always buy a ‘good education’.
    Look at the Bush family!
    Likewise ‘civilised’, not even one cell deep! Drops off like a scab in minutes flat. Everywhere.
    Nature of the beast.
    Must go, got a turkey to smoke!

  35. November 26, 2015 at 4:51 pm

    To quote Lord Tolloller: ‘……brains? I ofeten wish I had some myself.’

  36. November 26, 2015 at 5:21 pm

    CO: the Japanese perfected civilisation but look at 1932-1945!

  37. November 26, 2015 at 6:03 pm

    Christopher, – sorry, perhaps I am a bit direct now, but this monolgue about the European union sounds a bit condescending towards our political leaders, furthermore, I can honestly say, that Italians and Spaniards are quite happy with the progress of the EU and certainly the polish, they seek even deeper integration. We will never agree on that.
    And by the way, what do you mean by better educated? I would rather say more supported by a clique of rich boys. Clinton certainly has earned his stripes by his own efforts, I am rather uncertain about Bush, you might call him streetwise, but that’s about it.
    Janus – To quote Lord Tolloller: ‘……brains? I ofeten wish I had some myself.’ People who can laugh about themselves are mostly the intelligent one’s.

  38. November 26, 2015 at 6:18 pm

    Ok guys, enough is enough. Talk about the EU crap, there is a lot more crap here. 🙂
    Christopher. You say “What good has it really done? Develop a currency that has destroyed half the continent?”
    Can you let me know which half a continent has been destroyed? I am not aware of this.
    Also “There is a destroyed generation” Where is this destroyed generation? I am not aware of this.

    Where I do agree with you is that the Euro is not working very well. Maybe it needs a bit of experience in life to explain what has really happened.
    When I wanted to kick off a big multi-million Euro project in the past, the last thing to use in order to get that project launched was truth and honesty. It I had really declared all risks and lack of ROI, the project would never have gotten off the ground. The same is true of Concorde, Eurotunnel, A380 …you name it.
    Deceit is the only way to get things moving in this world.

    The European powers are not stupid, no matter what we think. They are well aware of the limmitations of launching a common currency, but pushed it through ‘undurchdacht’ as many would argue, in order to get it up and running. All we see with Greece and oher countries regarding the Euro was fully expected by the clever people of Europe but it was launched anyway.

    We will see the Euro survive and the integration of Europe get ever closer until we reach a United States Of Europe. This is the plan, and it will be pushed through no matter what. Greece and other fiscal hiccups will all be taken care of.

    All of this will happen without half a continent or even 10% of a continent being destroyed and I very much doubt if we will destroy any generations in the process.

    Wow, the Chariot has really livened up lately. Great to see. 🙂

  39. November 26, 2015 at 6:20 pm

    FoE, the numbskulls I named could not pass your humour test. Bush cannot pronounce nuclear either! 😱

  40. November 26, 2015 at 6:24 pm

    Janus: Do you mean nucular? 🙂

  41. November 26, 2015 at 6:47 pm

    Gaz: Romano Prodi admitted that the European Commission had hoped to spark a convenient crisis with the premature introduction of the euro and exploit it. What they didn’t anticipate was that the crisis would be quite as large as it turned out to be. By “destroyed” generation I meant young workers in southern Europe who have few employment prospects at home and have to emigrate to have a chance. Or, for that matter, the Irish who once again found it necessary to emigrate for employment prospects. Those who cannot leave and are stuck with underemployment or unemployment face a skills development gap that will be difficult to fix. The EU has bought the loyalty of many peoples through development funds — especially in countries where people have little use for their own governments. One reason why Italians have been so enthusiastic about the EU until recently is that they’ve given up on their ability to govern their own country.

    FoE: of course I hold politicians in contempt — that’s the only thing they deserve. I also talk back to politicians, tell officials off and sneer at petty bureaucrats. I’m only nominally German and exhibit hardly any trace of coming from that country. “Home” for me is England and Australia and I have a near-Australian tendency to not stand on ceremony or defer to anyone.

  42. November 26, 2015 at 6:55 pm

    Christopher. I assume that you include Spain in ‘Southern Europe’
    I live in Spain and for the life of me cannot see a destroyed younger generation.
    They seem happy and to be doing quite well. I was in the Cinema a couple of days ago, full of young happy people with smiling faces.
    I somehow imagine that if I had asked them if they were a ‘destroyed generation’ they would have laughed at me.

  43. November 26, 2015 at 6:57 pm

    Gaz: not everyone is doing equally badly. But how else can you explain the large uptick of young Spaniards going to Germany, Austria, the UK and Latin America for work? Emigration levels have gone up significantly. Youth unemployment in Spain is horrid.

  44. November 26, 2015 at 7:00 pm

    Christopher – I understand you cannot hold politicians at high regard, but nevertheless you might end up with a negative balance for yourself, not a fine way to be. What I find rather depressing is, that one who is not exactly politically correct does not stand a chance to influence the way decisions are made in government and this is especially true for the english system, as a high number of people are not represented. But on the other hand, as long as we can have debates like that, we should not care too much, it is up to everybody to accomodate their environment and I cannot see that the system is working against that where we live.

  45. November 26, 2015 at 7:02 pm

    Yes, I agree, certain professions need to move around in order to follow that profession, but that is normal. The same has been going on in most countries for years.
    My son had to go to London to follow his profession. He was not destroyed by that, but rather the opposite.
    I have worked in Spain, France, England and Germany and found it rather enjoyable. You have done something similar.
    Europe is our home.

  46. christinaosborne
    November 26, 2015 at 7:06 pm

    I agree with Christopher. But would go a lot further, most politicians need hanging from the nearest lampost as traitors to their constituents and countries..
    Can’t see a united states of Europe ever coming off. More likely revolutions, civil wars and isolationist policies. I don’t think the brainwashing is working in a lot of places, certainly not the peripheral countries of Europe. Just look at how many countries do not want raghead immigrants, not exactly happy bunnies are they? And if they are not removed in due course back to whence they came? Can’t see the happy ever after.
    If any think the United States of Europe can be enforcer by govts with the police and military, I very much doubt it.
    must away back to the turkey!

  47. November 26, 2015 at 7:17 pm

    Happy Thanksgiving!!!!!!

  48. November 26, 2015 at 7:30 pm

    Christina – have you ever lived on the european continent for a longer period? To how many people do you refer to, when making these judgements?

  49. November 26, 2015 at 7:48 pm

    FoE: I avoid dealing with government agencies as much as possible. I pay my taxes and do what I need to, but no more than that. The English system is messier. People everywhere in the world have had to deal with my intrusive regulation in recent years, but in Common Law countries there is more personal liberty than in Civil Law countries as individual liberties are there by practice not because a legal document says so. I really can’t be bothered to go back to Germany because I grew tired of non-EEA mail being opened and inspected with fascist regularity and even my freedom to view videos on Youtube restricted by GEMA.

    Gaz: if you love the EU and want it to flourish you will be more inclined to look at what it does positively and ignore its inherent weakness and fatal flaws. In the same way, I am more inclined to underplay its inherent strengths and focus more on its flaws. We both make choices of what to focus on and what to ignore. I cannot see a USE arising in any meaningful sense. Europe is only becoming more tribal. Good fences make good neighbours. Probably the only part of Europe I’d be happy to spend the rest of my life in is the UK. I only hold onto it because the USA is even worse. It might be your home, but it isn’t mine.

    CO: Europe can never be united because each crisis only highlights differences and all efforts at further union have only made things more dysfunctional and heightened rancour. In 1913 few people imagined that war would break out the next year. In the early 1930s people thought that there would be no massive European wars any time soon and it happened, anyway. Things spiral out of control very, very quickly and what seems “impossible” today is history next week. Our views are not so different on this, I’m just quieter.

  50. November 26, 2015 at 8:57 pm

    FoE, like Christina I don’t see Europeans wanting unity, just power-obsessed politicians with delusions of adequacy. We definitely don’t want to be overrun by migrants of any creed or colour. What we want is a sense of security, which is currently out of reach.

  51. November 26, 2015 at 9:13 pm

    Janus: what I’ve noticed throughout Europe is that while there is a desire to co-operate and co-exist, there isn’t really that much desire to truly become “united” and what “Europe” means is based very much on the needs of different European states. For Iberia it means an end to the isolation that befell both countries starting with the Catholic Reformation. For Italy it is a semblance of stability, for Greece and Cyprus it means not being part of the Middle East, for Eastern Europe it means modernity and — especially for the Baltic Trio — not being under the shadow of Russia. For Germany it means respectability and being a peaceful partner. For Ireland it means stepping out from Britain’s shadow. For France, a chance to be more powerful. For the UK and the Nordic members it is only trade save for a Finland’s desire to keep Russia an extra step away. However, as soon as it comes to coming up with money and giving up control of their own destinies support collapses. Outside of Belgium and Luxembourg very few people actually want the EU to grow more powerful. The only reason why the euro has retained public support in the South is because escudos, pesetas, lire and drachmas weren’t exactly competing with the Pound Sterling or Japanese Yen for stability.

  52. November 27, 2015 at 7:33 am

    Christopher, that’s how I read the mood too.

  53. November 27, 2015 at 8:25 am

    christophertrier For Ireland it means stepping out from Britain’s shadow.

    Wishful thinking.

    Ireland is inescapably part of the British Isles, the geographical, economic and ethnic realities overpower the politics.

  54. Boadicea
    November 27, 2015 at 9:50 am

    Just for the record, I’m with CO and Christopher. Sure the poorer countries of the EU – who should never have been admitted to the Euro – would like closer union. Why wouldn’t they like to be allied to richer countries who have cough up to support your country?

    I don’t really care if the EU continues or implodes – I just hope that the UK gets out and soon.

  55. November 27, 2015 at 10:36 am

    “…..Just for the record, I’m with CO and Christopher….”

    Ahem…..and Jazz??

  56. November 27, 2015 at 11:42 am

    And Janus, Miss! Miss….😪

  57. November 27, 2015 at 4:53 pm

    Janus: how’s this for the love of “Europe”? Last year I mentioned to my Viking-type chum that there was a new 10-euro-note. He utterly refused to even look at it on the grounds that he could not stand hearing about the euro or about “more Europe”.

    Jazz: I was playing Devil’s Advocate. Ireland is, whatever their national mythology is and no matter how brainwashed many Irish are, British. Britishness did not and does not prevent England, Wales, Scotland and British Ulster from having having distinct cultures, histories and identities — and it didn’t prevent Ireland from remaining Ireland by the standards of the time. Ireland has enjoyed poking the British, especially the English, in the eyes with impunity in European affairs knowing that they can hide behind the UK and pick up key concessions by doing that. The reality, which a number of Irish grudgingly admit,is that in the event of a British liberation from the dying EU, Ireland would have little choice but to leave the EU as well as they rely economically and politically on the UK and even US to such an extent that they cannot function in opposition to the UK.

  58. November 27, 2015 at 8:47 pm

    Had there had been a referendum on Irish independence I wonder what the result would have been ?

  59. November 27, 2015 at 9:16 pm

    guys I agree to all what you are saying, but nevertheless I must insist that we are better off being in the European Union than out of it. I see the fact, that I need to leave my country for a while to gain work experience somewhere else rather as an opportunity, than a problem. So in other words, it depends on the mindset of the individual, how it tackles the situation. The better neighbour with the fence, no I don’t believe that, most people are tribal, as you say it Cristhopher and you cannot build a tribe with a fence in the middle can you? Many trans-national European country see themselves as one tribe, it is only a matter of perspective. The biggest European problem is to ringfence its own territory, in other words build control to its borders outside, to where some ‘baddies’ come from.

  60. sheona
    November 27, 2015 at 10:03 pm

    I live in hope.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34940241

    Gazoopi, the Spaniards you saw at the cinema were the ones who can afford a ticket. Then there are the others …

  61. christinaosborne
    November 27, 2015 at 10:41 pm

    FoE You can stay in Europe if you like but most of us in the UK want out!
    Old national boundaries never stopped professional people moving around job wise, only kept the unskilled riff raff out! All you needed was a proper work visa. Yes it was a fag bothering to apply for it but rarely refused for valid purposes.

  62. November 28, 2015 at 1:21 am

    FoE: until the 1970s Finns, Danes, Swedes, Norwegians and Icelanders had a common travel zone, free trade and freedom of movement without the baggage of the EU. Norway, Switzerland, Iceland and Liechtenstein have free trade and freedom of movement without most of the baggage of the EU. Australia and New Zealand have freedom of movement. Canadians can work in the US and Americans can work in Canada. You may consider yourself a European first, but most of us don’t. Tribalism isn’t something that is generally spoken about — but look at how Germans cringe at supporting Greece and Portugal or how Finns can’t bear the fact that Cyprus is still financially weak. Helsinki doesn’t mind supporting Oulu, but it does resent having to support Athens. If I had a vote in the UK I’d vote to leave the EU. If I live in the UK during the campaign, I’ll support an “out” vote. I don’t bother voting in the elected dictatorship of Germany, although I am tempted to vote for the AfD to stick it to the hag Merkel and her cronies!

  63. christinaosborne
    November 28, 2015 at 1:23 am

    Sometime Christopher you are so funny!
    Love the last sentence.

  64. November 28, 2015 at 3:24 pm

    Christopher, CO – I understand from a UK perspective that the European Union is bothering a lot of people. After all I see more allegiance between all people who support a certain ‘ploticial opinion’ or ‘belief’ across Europe than people to each other inside their counrty, eg you both seem to not like the current parties in government and therefore have a lot more in common with each other (even though you are born in different countries) than with other UK citizens, who are strong fans of Jeremy Corbyn, is that not right?
    My punchline is – there are commonalities of social groups across Europe which somehow seem to override the commonality of country of birth. Just a thought.

  65. November 28, 2015 at 6:08 pm

    FoE: people are people. The UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand have a similar legal system, common language and share the same monarch. Their patterns of life are also incredibly similar. Even Hong Kong has a very British sensibility despite Beijing’s best efforts! Hong Kong feels less foreign to me than France.
    Spain has more in common with Mexico, Argentina, Chile and Cuba than it does with Sweden. Portugal has more in common with Brazil, East Timor, parts of India and Cape Verde than it does with Germany. The French can understand and appreciate African, Quebec and Pacific/Caribbean Islands cultural programmes better than Polish or even Italian. We shouldn’t be such Little Europeans, only looking barely across a fence.

  66. christinaosborne
    November 28, 2015 at 7:19 pm

    Sorry FoE, I share nothing much with Europe except a love of red wine and soft cheese!
    I am strictly a Nationalist. Whilst I know and like personally quite a few Europeans, I do not wish to live with their ways. I rarely even go to England when I am home. Once didn’t go out of Wales for nearly ten years. Why should I? Nothing I wanted there except the Cheltenham Races! Wouldn’t go now, full of wogs! I just about slide down to Devon to my sister and that is it!
    I think the pan European belief is a political construct from those in Brussels with an agenda. More fool those that swallow it. I think it an antithesis of their natural instincts and a deliberate effort to destroy their culture. Unfortunately all to many have swallowed it hook line and sinker and will pay a due price in good time. I just hope the UK can get out before the whole thing goes up!

    We must agree to differ.

  67. November 28, 2015 at 9:00 pm

    CO – I agree that we differ, because you are a nationalist english/american.
    Christopher – sorry to be blunt, but this is bollocks. What has Spain in common with Mexico? They speak about the same language, but that’s about it. Mexico is a second/third world country and no-one around here or in Madrid bothers about Mexico, they are historically totally different, are not a real democracy and still rules by 19th century rulers. Music is different too and not a lot of mexicans actually live in Spain. Especially in Cataluna people from other european countries are very well integrated and will more so in the future.
    Portugal and Brazil: hahaha, only because they speak the same language. Portugal takes some immigrants from Brazil because they feel sorry about the poverty striken population, which is not able to live in big cities.
    France: the French use africans in a similar way as germans treated the turkish. They are ‘Gastarbeiter’.
    The only thing that is true is the british commonwealth, but you know are about that, than I do, though nothing to add.
    I do not see myself as little European, in the end everybody seems to want to come here, not the reverse.
    Yes my other option to live would be Britain, but the weather there is too bad, living cost too high and control of the population more and more.

  68. November 28, 2015 at 11:24 pm

    FoE: your ignorance is brutal. They speak the same language, have similar patterns of life, inter-connected histories, family ties and much of Mexico’s culture comes from Spain. Is it different? Yes, different countries and histories and Mexico is far more than a mere copy of Spain but the similarity is there for all those who bother to consider it. As Carlos Fuentes wrote, Spain isn’t Spain if she ignores the world she created and Latin America would be nothing if it forgot where so much of what are came from. People like you are why I hold Europe in absolute and utter contempt — especially the continent. I do everything to separate myself from naval-gazers who can’t look past their little peninsula.

  69. November 28, 2015 at 11:40 pm

    CO: My best mate is a Dane. I enjoy holidaying in Scandinavia and the UK but really, the rest of the continent is little more than a curiosity and a gigantic museum. This euro-delusion is pitiful. The more “united” Europe is, the more irrelevant it becomes, the more dysfunctional it is. Not only that, but it is increasingly dull and mediocre. It will all end in tears as it always does, but I hope that at least the UK and Nordic countries can save themselves from the chaos that will engulf everything south of the Jutland. In the mean time, let the deluded have their waning fantasies — thinking they’re superior because of their pseudo-cosmopolitanism seems to be the only thing they have left.

  70. christinaosborne
    November 29, 2015 at 12:50 am

    FOE Oh dear! I think you had better stop digging! The hole is getting rather deep!
    Sorry I am neither English or American! I am a Nationalist of Wales, not necessarily a Welsh Nationalist, a semantic difference. I hold British nationality and am a resident of the USA.
    I am afraid you really have it rather wrong about Mexico. They are doing rather well at the moment. Spain has nothing to offer them except a joint heritage. They know their bread is buttered to the North and have very little interest in Spain or Europe as a whole. Last year 200,000 (net) illegal Mexicans went home as there were more and better jobs down there han here in the USA!

    The wogs only want to come to Europe for the handouts, No handouts, they would soon go elsewhere!
    Perhaps you are really too Eurocentric? Others just think the whole place is deluded and on a giant collision course, mainly with itself.

  71. November 29, 2015 at 2:00 am

    CO: Spain actually has quite a bit to offer Mexico — Spain accounts for 18.1pc of Mexico’s foreign direct investment, second only to the dump north of Mexico which accounts for 28.9pc. Spain invests heavily in Latin American countries and Latin American countries invest heavily in Spain. Their legal systems are very similar and language makes many things easier. Brazil is one of the biggest investors in Portugal. Many Portuguese, when the economy is bad in Portugal, go to Brazil and there are many Brazilians with Portuguese relatives and Portuguese with relatives in Brazil. In former Portuguese colonies in Africa most Africans prefer dealing with the Portuguese because of common language, similar legal systems and cultural familiarity. One reason why British Airways, or rather, the IAG, bought Iberia was because they coveted their lucrative routes to Latin America via Barajas. The USA and EU both equally deluded and up themselves — both are declining rapidly and convinced of their inherent superiority despite glaring evidence to the opposite.

  72. November 29, 2015 at 5:35 pm

    Christopher, FoE your ignorance is brutal.
    Christopher, I assume you mean
    1. That I am ignorant about the facts regarding the european union and
    2. Especially about the proximity between Mexico and Spain.
    Therefore I need to go a bit more into detail about these two points and you will see that at the end, it is rather you who is ignorant. But no worries I book this against your youth and inexperience in understanding people’s mindsets and that politicians in this context are as well human beings like you and me. But I stop wondering about your personality and go straight back to the points.
    Before I start this analysis, let us first establish together, what an ignorant person really is:
    For this I consult Miriam Webster and look up the meaning, which is: lacking knowledge or eductaion, being unenlightened. So I assume you can be ignorant of all sorts of things, as the meaning is fairly generic. But let’s go and become more specific:
    Ignorance about what:
    a. about the law, current political affairs of each of its member countries?
    b. about science and technology in each of its member countries?
    c. about history and culture in each of its member countries?
    d. about lifestyle and daily life in its member countries?
    These criteria can be used for both points 1. and 2.

    This here are my results and conclusion:
    a. You are right the legal system is the biggest problem between UK, America with common law, but this is more or less different to the rest of the world, therefore the difference applies to any other member of the european union and as well to Mexico.(1. and 2.).
    1. The political elite across Europe is still deceitful regarding many matters, no doubt about that, but this is the same with or without the European union.
    2. The political elite in Mexico has other problems to worry about than the Jihad, as the majority of the people are on salaries which none of us could live on and therefore Jihadists are not inclined to attack these. There are more lucrative victims in this world.
    b. 1.Science and technology is vastly driven by the US and many techmological standards are originated from the military. Companies, who industrialise science and technology nevertheless are permanently trying to improve on these standards, which make common european projects a very sensible undertaking. If one of the countries can no longer partake or has to drop out if these projects, there is normally a backup available, which sounds like efficient and forward thinking to me. I met a Studienrat from Germany recently and he told me about the wonderful progress he made thanks to the Bologna Process to improve the knowledge of prospective students of politics and social sciences and this was a collaborative effort with students from the UK, Italy, Germany and others. Airbus as a company would have a huge problem if the European Union stopped functioning and they have permanently lobbied for the union in England as one of their business units. Guess why?
    2. If Mexico does not comply with the world standards of pollution or how to produce energy, who would suffer more, Spain or the US?
    c. 1. There is a huge cultural interchange between France, Spain, Italy, England and Germany. From here there are bi-weekly flights to interconnect between students from England and Spain. Who pays intercultural student projects? Today, guess who?
    2. Historically and culturally there are two parallel societies in Mexico: the one’s who stem from the aztecs / mayas (the cultural museum of the city of Mexico is mostly focusing on aztec/maya history) and the history of Spain, so the kids of Mexico have two roots. Only a small part of the population knows about Trotzki and Frieda Kahlo, Beethoven and Bach, Shakespeare and Cervantes, whereas one of the central parts of european culture are the main great authors that we all share and appreciate together. This is all available across Spain to everybody to affordable prices and readings are normally free of cost. Many people in Mexico are still illiterate, therefore the Underground stations contain different pictures, such that everybody can move around without getting lost.
    I could go on and on about this in here, with examples which support my view, but certainly there is other knowledge about the influence of the spanish on Mexico.
    d.1. The everyday life should be as flexible to the ease of any individual citizen. In Europe, there is a diversity, but on the other hand a communality between how to behave in a works place, what to learn, common knowledge about illnesses and how to best treat them, etc. most people in South America would give a diamond to be able to move to Europe, but only the rich boys make it. On a personal note, I would have liked to work for Embraer in Brazil for a little while to get to know the country, but certainly not forever, as Senor Ricardo who was an engineer confirmed to me, what it is like, when you get older in Brazil.
    If Mexico (or Brazil) go down the pan, we only have a migrant crisis on our hands, which impacts most european countries, but the country itself looses diginity, lives and labour.
    2.I read the spanish newspaper from today (El pais) and compare that with the latest news from Germany: my observation is, that the first page is head lights of internal politics, about 6 pages are about international news and then in detail all about Spain and Catalunya, furthermore ideas, which again concern the international affairs and are not country specific, so depend on what is going on in the world. There is no special page regarding South America. So the engagement with reporters from the different countries is certainly not centric to South America.

    Christopher, ignorance is many faceted! Some people as well are ignorant about the past, or ignorant about their own future or ignorant about the current here and now. But the current here and now moves on very fast and before you think about it, it has become the past, therefore history. It is all a matter about personal priorities to best accomodate for your wishes in this world.
    No-one these days should claim not to be ignorant in some subject matters, otherwise he would be claiming a God or Prophet status. I think you would not survive, by claiming to be the one. Be careful in future what you write to people and/or accuse them of.

    Happy afternoon

  73. November 29, 2015 at 5:45 pm

    FoE: 😀 Keep digging.

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